alexg5775
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Posts posted by alexg5775
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excellent review, thanks for posting.
did you do much listening/comparing of the cf-4's before the mods? curious to hear your thoughts on how the mostly stock epics compared to the k-horns.... i understand the new mid driver made a big difference in the sound, but the stock woofers are the same & are what is making the "better" bass you heard. based on that i am not surprised you liked the epics bass more than the k-horns, i understand ported enclosures technically produce more distortion than a horn loaded enclosure, but, i have read many that agree it is a better sensation of bass & thats the first thing i noticed when i "upgraded" to the k-horn. while they do sound good & on the right recordings have great chest impacting slam, but compared to the dual 12" of the epics, with good power, it just seemed like a more overall balance of the bass to mids than the k-horns had.
thanks again for the review.
You know i reread my review now and it might sound like i am bashing the khorns just a little. That was not my intention, i think they are great, AMAZING speakers, however, my review was 100% honest.
When i first got my cf4's i listen to them a few weeks then i did all the mods at the same time. there was now way to do one mod and listen, then another mod and listen, etc. This would have taken WAY to much time and driven me crazy. It would be extremely difficult or impossible to compare the stock cf4 to the khorn and the modded cf4 to the khorn. I can tell you the cf4 sounded AMAZING completely stock and i would have not spent the time and $ i spent modding them if i was not blown away from them.
The biggest and best mod i did (and probably the easiest) i felt was the tweeter. How was the bass changed or affected? I felt less distortion coming from the woofers, slightly more detail, more palpable bass. they did NOT get louder. Bass seemed a little tighter. All the bracing stiffened the box and the damping, well damped the woofers catching the back waves of the woofer audibably cleaning up the bass...
Stock these things are monsters. MONSTERS. Put some clean power behind them, upgrade the tweet and go from there...
Special thanks to Moray James for helping me with the mods. Incredible what he did for me and must have spent dozens of hours helping me on the phone and through email. Feel free to PM me with more questions and hope i helped.
Alex
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Any one know someone with a pair of Jubs near south FL i can take a listen??
Nope however, next weekend I am expecting a visitor who lives in Tallahassee. He's been debating on horns and heard/read about the Jubilee's and wants to hear them. He's driving up for the weekend and we're going to answer all his questions (or do my best).
Once he's here, you might contact him for his opinions. I know he's never heard LaScalas (of which I have) and he's never heard Jubilee's (which is why he's coming). I don't know how many horns he's heard, if any.
I'm guessing he's going to be driving home in a daze that will last him a month or so as he sorts out in his head what he just experienced.
Once he's joined the 'heard' crowd, he might be a good one to talk to for initial impressions.
I'll try to direct him to this thread just in case you want to talk to him while he's fresh with what he's heard.
That would be great and thank you.
Alex
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Since you asked...
Khorn are from 1987 and have Crites CT125 tweeter and type A-4500 crossovers, just under two years old. Rest of speaker is stock. Khorns were tucked into corners as they should be. CF4s were raised 24" off [the] floor.Room is 13 feet x 20 feet with 8 foot ceiling, opens into kitchen and stairs, tile floors, Khorns and cf4's were tested on short wall.
...Speakers are being passively biamped...I also have a THTLP horn sub...review is with sub not in use.
...K horns with 500c: The music sounds very non fatiguing. Music sounds more REAL, more presence. The music was warm, as it should be, and very dynamic. Music had this special bloom sound to it. This combo especially shined at producing the human voice, producing musical instruments as they should sound...
...Where I did feel this combo did lack was in the overall robustness and power for the lower frequencies. It did not have that slam with authority which I craved. The bass could be just a tad on the sloppy side.
That last sentence says two things to me:
1) you definitely have room acoustics issues--and I assume that you never put at least bass traps in the room, since you are describing the sound of a room with Khorns and improper trapping, and
2) You aren't as interested in accurate reproduction but rather "bass slam" - which to me is another way of saying "audible bass distortion". You're not the only person that I know that likes "bass slam": there are many others here that share your preference.
Having said that, I'd recommend the following, no kidding, changes:
- put bass traps in at least one corner, and two would be better, and think about placing absorption or diffusion panels on the ceiling
- run a REW sweep in your room with a laptop or desktop system (no calibrated microphone is required) and use that to estimate how much absorption is needed by looking at the resulting RT60 vs. frequency curve
- move any objects within 4 feet of your loudspeakers (left, right and height) out of the way and place absorption pads over or on any objects within 6 feet
Jub bass bins will audibly beat the CF4 woofer direct radiators for quality and quantity of bass and lower midrange fidelity, but if you don't really want that (bass accuracy and much lower modulation distortion) I recommend that you enjoy what you have.
If you ever decide that you want more accurate reproduction instead of "bass slam" on techno/house (which typically doesn't have truly deep and accurate bass), there are suggestions for how to proceed in that direction. Those suggestions will start with recommendations for midbass horns and K-510 or K-402 high frequency horns with better compression drivers, and most importantly, active crossovers and active bi-amping or tri-amping with in-room EQ measurements using REW to correct for in-room irregularities. Those suggestions will definitely beat what you have now--by a wide audible margin.
Chris
I built the bass traps. I have 3 corner bass taps 2x4 ft 4" deep in 3 corners and a 4 - 2x4 ft 2" deep absorbtion panels on the first reflection points, (two on the ceiling and 1 on each wall on the sided.) I used owens corning 703. This was all DIY and i did it myself and i noticed a big difference in sound. Bass seemed tighter, more even throughout the room and louder music seemed not to have much of that high screetching sound. Music sounded better for sure. I am doing my best to describe. I have honestly never done any of this REW sweep in my room. I probably do have room accoustic issues, what exaclty can i do or go from here?
When i change and upgrade, i do plan on going active and would like the k402 horn, just FYI.
I admit i do crave that bass slam and i hope and dont think* what i trully want is this audiblebass distortion. I am no expert and any and all help is appreciated. I think i can differentiate between high and low distortion bass. I know high distortion bass sounds louder, and under stand why you might think this is what i am after after saying i want that bass slam factor but i dont THINK is what i am trully after.
I have owned all aformentioned speakers and many more. I particularly like the la scala bass. I think and consider the bass cleaner, more articulate/tighter than all other speakers. Maybe i am wrong, but is my opinion and what my ears heard.
I have always loved horn bass, My question simplified would be whether dual la scalas bass bins would sound compared to a single jub bass bin. I dont know if anyone has ever considered or run anything like dual la scala bass cabs per side and maybe me even considering this is stupid in a way but i am just curious. I really do appreciate all the help and knowledge.
Alex
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That you all for the comments and help.
At first i had the la scalas with a sealed sub. Then i got my tht. I loved this combo. Then i sold la scalas and got the khorns. Khorns were tucked into corner tightly as the should be. I switched between different amplification for them, SS and tube. Obvious notice was khorns playes much deeper than la scalas, they had more bass. The bass although played "lower" and maybe a touch louder i felt was more boomy/sloppy/slow. Bass filled the room nicely but i felt lacked that mid range bloom or clean kick the la scalas provided. It was not a night and day difference but a noticable one. I have done tons of research and i have read many ther similiar observations. Let me remind i have the tht which playes very well up into the 80hz or so, so sub blended seamlessly with la scalas. I got the khorns well beceause the are KHORNS and i thought would sound better than la scalas provided i knew they played lower, etc. I figure i would just have more bass but in the end to be honest i was disapointed. I like my la scalas/tht combo better then khorn/tht combo. This is all IMO and i am being honest.
I now have the cf4's. I posted another in depth review on cf4's vs. khorn. I think you guys should take a look at it. Took me a while to write that review. The cf4's (modded how i have them) to me was a clear upgrade to khorns. Cf4's compared to la scalas i would argue the highs on cf4's sound better, Cf4's have more bass than la scalas, more in your chest thump and play lower than la scalas, BUT, i still would argue the la scala bass was cleaner and sounded better. I am a bass addict as you can tell;)
I would love me a pair or MWM's but they just wont fit in my house:( What mostly concerns is the depth, i beleive the mwm are 4ft deep?
I just want to be sure the Jubs have that tight clean bass the la scalas have, which is why i was pretty much considering jubscalas but with two la scala bass bottoms per side (as stupid as it may sound.)
Any one know someone with a pair of Jubs near south FL i can take a listen??
Thanks for all the help and opinions guys,
Alex
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This is my first review of any speaker or any audio product i have ever heard, FYI.
A little back ground. I started with the rf-82's with pioneer receiver, then la scalas with two marantz ma700's monoblocks, then my khorns which i had a b&k 2220 on them, then changed up between a restored fished 500c and a marantz 2252b receiver for khorns. I now have the cf4's which have been modded (link with mods below) being driven by the marantz 2252b for highs and a crest ca6 pro amp (350 watts at 8 ohms) for the woofers. Speakers are being passively biamped.I have a Bushmaster mkII DAC. I also have a thtlp horn sub powered by a dayton sa1000 sub amp, however, review is with sub not in use.
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/151115-epic-cf4-mods-amp-rack-build/
I am 30 years old and live in Miami. I listen to mostly techno/house music, rest is descending order is spanish music, hip hop/r&b, country, rock.
Khorn are from 1987 and have crites ct125 tweeter and type A-4500 crossovers, just under two years old. Rest of speaker is stock. Khorns were tucked into corners as they should be. Cf4's were raised 24" of floor. Room is 13 feet x 20 feet with 8 foot celing, opens into kitchen and stairs, tile floors, khorns and cf4's were tested on short wall.
K horns with 500c
The music sounds very non fatuiging. Music sounds more REAL, more presence. The music was warm, as it should be, and very dynamic. Music had this special bloom sound to it. This combo especially shinned at producing the human voice, producing musical instruments as they should sound. Were i did feel this combo did lack was in the overall robustness and power for the lower frequencies. It did not have that slam with authority which i craved. The bass could be just a tad on the sloppy side.
K horns with marantz 2252b
The bass reponse i felt was SLIGHTLY improved than with the 500c. Just a little more pronounced, a little tighter, a little more authority. The music was not as musical on the top end. The 500c was noticeably more real sounding, a little warmer, more dynamic, more musical.
I also used the 500C and marantz 2252b on my pair of heresy II with very similiar outcome as above. The khorns obviously had a much bigger sound, got louder, hit lower, and sounded better on both units.
Cf4's with 500C
The 500C sounded very similiar on the cf4's compared to the khorns. The music was very non fatiguing. Very musical. Had a certain bloom to it. I feel i can give a slight edge to the cf4s on highs and lows. Bass was slightly better on the cf4's, the highs was close on cf4's and khorn. Slightly tigher and more robust bass on the cf4's than the khorns.
Cf4's with marantz 2252b and Crest ca6 biamped
The highs were very close to the 500C but did not have this musicality of the 500C. I even ran the 500c on one of the tweets, the 2252b on the other tweet of other cf4 and turned woofers completely off and the differance was hard to find but after extended listening i was able to tell the differance. The 500C sounded better. more of this bloom and musicality that is hard to describe. Once i cranked up the woofers with the crest, and tweets on the marantz 2252b thats were the magic lied. I did not think that woofers carried to much information, the tweeter alone sounded soooo empty, so much music missing, but when the woofers were fired up (with the crest amp biamped) i was stunned. The tonality of the bass, the slam factor, tight, punchy bass. I mean off the walls! These speakers sound amazing with hip hop and bass heavy music. Biamping these speakers i am able to tame the tweeter and bring the bass up and it sounds much better than not being biamped. There is a midrange/midbass that comes out of these woofers than appear to be almost inaudable in the khorns. In my mind i tell my self "wow", makes this much of a impression of me. The over all sound is efforless, i feel like the tweeters and woofers are not struggling and while are producing high spl. By this time you are screaming in the room. The sound stage is phenominal. The way the music comes at you is great. Maybe it the tweeter between the woofers? Bringing them up made a HUGE differance. Over all tone, dimentionality of music, bass slam effect, crystal clear highs, low distortion. I cant get enough of these.
Like i said before i do preffer the sound of the 500c over the marantz BUT the way i am biamping (using marantz preouts to crest) fisher not having these preouts it would be impossible to biamp the fisher, this makes me very sad;/ This being said cf4's DO sound better with marantz/crest combo than 500c alone. BUT you are comparing 350watts just for woofers and being able to tame the tweeter through biamping, than to just the 35watts tube power the 500C has, which pushed the cf4's to incredible spl levels regardless.
If i were to listen to pure jazz or classical or maybe music with not to many bass lines i would preffer the 500C BUT i do listen to heavy bass music so i must pick the marantz/crest combo over the 500c. In both instances i would pick the cf4's over the khorns. The cf's tweeter is just a few inches higher than the khorn tweet and i think this made a differance. I feel the EV dh1506 compression drivers and the horns in the cf4's are superior to the ct125 tweets and k-55-m (squaker) on the khorn. The dh1506's just seem to get louder, while mainting clean clear sound and honestly i just feel they sound better. The khorn have the horn bass which bounces of the corners of the room then reaches your ear. I always thought the khorn bass somehow had to much distortion and a little muddy, although it did hit low. I liked the clean bass/mid bass from the la scala better. I DO feel like the la scala bass was tighter and cleaner than the cf4 BUT the cf4 do have more output, more slam and bass in your chest. Although ported (i never was to fond of ported box bass) the bass seems to hit just about as low as the khorn, just a tad more umph in the lower region, much more umph in the upper bass, cleaner, clearer, tighter bass for sure. This is of course being biamped.
I know in a way this is not fair comparing a modded cf4 to almost stock khorn, and also the cf4 bring biamped the khorn not, however, even with mods the cf4 cost ME less and are smaller, weigh less, and about the same in $ in amplification compared to khorns.
Just FYI i wrote this review a few months ago and never posted it. the khorns have long been sold.
Please feel free to leave all suggestions and opinions.
Alex
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This post is just for my general knowledge and a future system i am looking to put together, just fyi.
Long story short i went from la scalas, to k horns, and now own cf4's. I thought the la scala bass had the sweetest, tightest bass of all these speakers. The khorn bass i was not to fond of, a bit sloppy and maybe "slow." The cf4's have amazing bass, i would say louder and more impact of the la scalas but did not have that tightness the la scalas had, which i miss.
I am looking in the future to upgrade my current speakers. I have always dreamed of a pair of jubs. I hear great things about the jubs although i have never heard a pair. My question is how does the Jub bass compare to the bass of the la scalas? The tightness, the impact, the spl, and over all quality of the bass. I have always been a bass addict. I have a tht now and i am looking for a pair of speakers to compliment the tht well with clean, tight, chest pounding bass. I dont know if this is feasable, but i was thinking to even go with 2 la scala bass cabs per side, or 4 in total, i fugure 4 15's in a horn enclosure would offer more spl and hopefulyl sound as tight and clean as 4 12's in a horn enclosure (Jubs).
Thanks for any and all help,
Alex
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I painted my cf4's and an amp rack i built in black duratex and i could not be happier. I have received many compliments as well. Go on google pics and see duratex cabs pics so you can get an idea.
Alex
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I sure love my tht. GLWS
Alex
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WOW those look nice. GLWS
Alex
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Has anybody heard kpt-904's and also pair of jubs? How do they compare or how do you think they will compare?
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I am a sucker for those big meters too
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I wish these were local to me, i would help out
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Wow greast drivers at a great price. GLWS.
Alex
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I am intrested to see what happens with these... Wish i had the space.
Alex
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Reminds me of that big speaker in back to the future:)
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I run a optical digital cable from my macbook headphone out to the optical digital input on my dac. This cable is like 20 bux on amazon. Works great
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Duratex is good stuff. I used on my cf4's and also on Amp rack i built and tht and i love the finish and durability. Hard to beat.
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These looks nice. GLWS
Alex
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WOW, great deal
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I have my cf4's with a marantz 2252b for the highs and use the preamp outs to feed a crest ca6 pro amp rated a 350 @ 8 ohms to power the woofers. They sounds very very good with the benefit of being pasively biamped and able to tame the tweeter or up the woofers if you wish.. I highly suggest you give it a try. Try doing some research. Might just be a better cheaper option for you as well and you can keep the marantz. Hope i helped and dont hesitate to concact me with further questions.
Alex
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I also owned this sub. I agree with Bill. Sub hits very low as well... GLWS.
Alex
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I just sent a e-mail....for $400 I'll take em
I'll keep you guys posted
MKP :-)
Haha. Good luck! Let us know.
Alex
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I bought mine on eBay. Theres one one now but its pretty pricey i think. Just sit back and be patient there always popping up on the bay. I think this is the best single mod that can be done to the cf'4, good choice;) Good luck.
Alex
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Man that danley DBH218 is nice. One day i would love to own one of danleys subs... I went to a concert were they had a BC415 and it was the cleanest, loudest, most beautiful bass i have ever heard.
Alex
Epic cf4 mods + amp rack build
in Technical/Restorations
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