Boomzilla

My friend, to whom I sold & then bought back a pair of Heresies, must have cranked his amp up to 11... The tweeter AND midrange on one of the speakers are blown. Question: Should I replace the original parts or go with Mr. Crites' upgrades? Factors to consider: I like the sound of the original tweeters I don't want to have to modify the relative woofer-squawker-tweeter levels - close to stock is fine for me I've owned a pair of Heresy II speakers and like the earlier models better. Advice appreciated. Thanks!

That's the thing with fuses, they're tricky! Often the wire will melt inside the cap, where you can't see it at all. Even though the fuse LOOKS good, it is actually blown & open. A continuity checker like a VOM will tell the truth in seconds. Long story short, don't trust looks!

I would tend to agree: Yes - wires sound different, BUT value for the $$ they aren't. The law of diminishing returns applies in spades to wire - a little bit better wire usually costs a LOT more. Before I laid out lots of money for wires, I'd buy a pair of Mr. Crites' Corn-Scalas instead. SO, to summarize - my mind is made up - don't confuse me with facts! LOL...

Thanks, Ironsave - might you be persuaded to share a photo of those "DIY risers?" I've currently got mine on a pair of "amplifier stands" that get the speakers about two inches off the floor, but with no tilt. I listened for about 10 minutes last night until a thunderstorm came through and we lost electricity. The speakers imaged! Before the Heresy set, I was listening to a pair of Theil 1.5 speakers that are supposedly renowned for their imaging. Until I got the Theils about a third of the way into the room, they couldn't image at all! When I set them that far out, my spouse promptly said "no - get them back against the walls." Damned if you do, damned if you don't... In any case, the Heresy speakers, in my room, against the wall, imaged FAR better than the Theils. I might also ask this forum for recommendations on speaker wire (yes, I'm aware that this is a controversial topic that many find totally bogus). The wires that I currently have available include: Monster Cable 12 ga., Kimber Kable 4TC, and Nordost Flatline. I obviously haven't had time to try them, but will report when I can. On the Thiels (being 4 ohms and liking lots of current), the Monster was the best of the bunch. With the 10-ohm Heresy speakers, I probably have more flexibility. Finally, might I ask a few more general questions: My Heresy grilles look dusty. What's the best cleaning method? I just re-oiled the walnut Heresy finish with high-gloss tung oil; what's the best interval for additional oil application? These Heresy speakers will be used with a Definitive Technology SuperCube 1 subwoofer; what's the best crossover frequency assuming the Heresy speakers retain their floor coupling? Thanks - Boomzilla

Having personally used the Marantz 1060 with a variety of Heresy, Cornwall, and LaScala speakers, I must politely disagree. Like most transistor amps of that time period, the Marantz electronics sound grainy and bright to my ears. The (non-defeatable) tone controls for bass, mid, and treble can make some difference in a room-mismatch situation, but their effect on the total sound is ultimately damaging. In short, the Marantz solid state stuff just wasn't very good. My favorite match for Klipsch speakers from that period is the Dynaco tube gear. Although potentially wooly in the bass, the sweetness in the midrange and treble worked magic with Uncle Paul's horns. My advice to you would be to scrap the Marantz solid state equipment and hunt some vintage tube gear. Many will disagree with this advice, but many others will second it. Let your own ears be your guide. Happy listening! - Boomzilla

Well, my reading obviously isn't the same place as yours. Most reviewers that I've read praise the Denon sound, but concede that the wimpy power supply in Denon equipment makes it a poor choice for low impedances. I've never heard of "a really inaccurate sound output" from any credible reviewer. The Denon-RF-83 match may not be made in Heaven, but on the other hand, it shouldn't be reminiscent of Hell either. My choice for good-sounding but inexpensive electronics in an AVR is Yamaha. Even their entry level stuff sounds acceptable and since they're heavily discounted, you can't beat the price. My advice to the original poster is to pick up a yard-sale Yamaha AVR and give it a chance. I bought mine (with original remote) for $10, Cheers! - Boomzilla

I see that this question has been asked on the forums before, but normally not in a technical context. Uncle Paul obviously intended for Heresy speakers to sit on the floor for bass reinforcement. In the modern world, however, many of us use subwoofers so that the floor bass boost isn't required. Therefore, in order to optimize imaging, what height should Heresy speakers be? Certain heights would cause cancellation and significantly uneven bass response, other heights would put the squawker & tweeter above ear level. Has anyone measured room response with the cabinets at various heights? What gave the smoothest response with minimum effect on the bass? Enquiring minds want to know... Thanks - Boomzilla

On stereo music use, the Denon should be able to play Bach & St. Saens just fine. What one needs to know about the receiver is that the same power supply runs all channels at the same time. For stereo only, only two of the five (or seven) channels are being driven, so the receiver is far less likely to clip. Manufacturers (and particularly Denon) NEVER rate their AV equipment with all channels driven because the wattage available would be so small. I'd think that you can rock out with that stereo organ music with little hazard to either the speakers or receiver. Of course, you STILL won't get any subsonics out of the LaScalas - they just don't go that low. If you really want bass, you must add a subwoofer. Then you'll be able to "feel the bass" as pressure waves in your gut and chest (while the kitchen china rattles several rooms away). Happy listening! Boomzilla

Those reports refer mostly to situations where the Denon owner is trying to drive low-efficiency, low-impedance speakers. the Denon line definitely doesn't like 4-ohm electrical loads! With your high-efficiency, 8-ohm RF-83s, you should have both plenty of power and lots of loud available with your Denon - Enjoy! Boomzilla

It depends entirely on how loudly you listen. At most "reasonable" listening levels, no - both the Yamaha and the LaScalas are happy campers. If, however, you're listening to a very loud sound track (Jurassic Park?) with the volume turned up and the "subsonic" rumbles of dinosaur steps come in, the Yamaha could easily clip with that much bass boost. In that case, you could damage the woofer in the LaScalas (and maybe even the horn drivers too). Factors that put you at risk include: All channels driven simultaneously without a subwoofer Extremely loud volumes Frequencies below about 45 Hz (the LaScala's design lower limit) Happy listening! - Boomzilla

NEW INFORMATION: Per a tech support e-mail from Mr. Chet Pelkowski of Definitive Technology, the speaker level inputs have an impedance (to the amplifier input) of 2,000 ohms. This means if I run them in parallel with the 10-ohm Heresy speakers, the equivalent impedance to the amplifier will be 9.95 ohms - well within the comfort zone of the amplifier. Mr CECAA850, you were correct; the Super Cube subwoofer's speaker-level crossover (high-pass side) is 6dB per octave, set at 80 Hz for an 8-ohm speaker, and is NOT adjustable. That means that if I hook up the (nominally) 10-ohm Heresy speakers to that crossover, the actual crossover point will be 64 Hz rather than 80. It also means that I'll have a 25 microfarad capacitor in series with the speaker's internal crossovers (not a good thing). As to bearing with you, I'd rather beer with you, but we can't do that over the internet, LOL... Thanks again to all who have participated in this thread! Cordially - Boomzilla

I think we're all getting confused over hookup. If I use the speaker-level crossover in the sub, then I've placed a variable passive crossover between the speaker (which is NOT an 8-ohm resistance) and the amplifier. The high-pass speaker-level crossover in the sub is a simple RC network with a variable resistor to set the 6-dB per octave rolloff on the speakers. Since this variable passive crossover is in series with the speaker's internal crossover, unintended changes to the speaker's crossover frequencies/slopes AND significantly cruddier sound will result. Yes, it would produce an "easier" load to my amp because the sub would be handling all the high-amperage frequencies below about 80 Hz, but the degradation to the rest of the music isn't worth the "benefit" of making life easier on the amplifier. Being an acoustic suspension design, the Heresy speakers roll off naturally at about 6dB per octave. I'd prefer to run the speakers "full range" from the amplifier. I currently plan to run speaker wires to the subwoofer's speaker inputs in parallel with the Heresy speakers. This arrangement provides two advantages - the speakers have a direct coupling with the amplifier, producing correct crossover performance and superior sound, and the subwoofer can be kicked in at any phase, frequency, and amplitude that works best in the room. Essentially, I'm giving up the "advantage" of not working the speakers in their bass range for the better accuracy and sound of having the speakers NOT go through an additional passive crossover. Clear as mud? Boomzilla...

Thank you, Cask05 - It looks as if a slightly higher crossover frequency would do the Heresy some good - 80 Hz looks like a good target, should I opt for the impedance matcher. The impedance curve is also a relief - I'm pretty sure that the amp will tolerate a 10 and an 8 ohm load in parallel (4.44 ohms) without too much problem provided I don't ask for high output levels. If the input of the sub is also greater than eight ohms (a possibility I'm waiting on Definitive Technology customer support to confirm), then the amp will have an even easier drive. For the gentleman who asked, my sub is a Supercube One. Thanks again to all who have responded. Boomzilla

Thank you, Chris - I appreciate the links. Because I have variable volume already built into the sub, I should be able to design for greater channel separation on the main speakers. Assuming that I need 2.5 volts drive at full 100 watt amplifier output, I need to attenuate the 28.8 volts at the speaker terminals by a factor of 10. That should allow me to drive the sub to full volume at full speaker volume. Of course, I don't plan on using either full sub or full speaker volume, but the adjustable volume on the sub should allow fine adjustment. Since I'm using HWO model Heresy speakers, I expect to cut in the sub at the same 50 Hz that the speakers roll off at? If I remember, though, Uncle Paul spec'd the heritage speakers at -5dB for their frequency response, so maybe a bit higher? Phase matching I can do by ear or with a Stereophile test CD. Of course, if the "speaker level" inputs on the Definitive Technology Supercube are NOT eight ohms, then I may be able to get away with running the speakers and sub in parallel off the amplifier speaker taps. Because the Heresies are high efficiency, and because I typically don't listen at high volumes, the amp may not care about a low impedance? I think I'll try this option first. Should the amp run too hot, then I'll consider taking the time to build the impedance matcher. I appreciate your response - Cordially - Boomzilla

Thank you for the response, but I believe you may not have a full picture of how the amp and the subwoofer crossover work... My amplifier has but one pair of speaker terminals. Even if it had "A" and "B" terminals, the both of them are driven by the same output transistors. Therefore, if you connect an 8-ohm load on the "A" terminals and another 8-ohm load on the "B" terminals, the load presented to the output transistors will be 4 ohms. Only by selecting one or the other of the speaker outputs, but not both, does the load equal the impedance of the speakers attached. Secondly, the Definitive Technology sub does not have a "pass through" for the main speakers. Instead, it has a passive, adjustable network designed for 8-ohm speakers that can set both the main speaker high-pass frequency / level and the subwoofer low-pass frequency / level. This additional (and inexpensive) set of crossover components would interact in unpredictable ways with the speaker's own internal crossover providing audible differences. This is not only true theoretically, but I can hear the difference with my own ears. The only idea that I've come up with is to build an "impedance adapter box." By inserting resistors in the hot wires of the integrated amplifier's speaker outputs, I could create line-level variable sources to drive the subwoofer's right and left "preamp inputs." The resistors would preserve separation between the right and left channels, and the high resistance would interfere neither with the main loudspeakers' crossover components nor with the amplifier's output section. In fact, Paul Klipsch, himself designed such a network to provide a common "center channel" driver for a center power amplifier. Thank you again for your response, and if you have additional ideas, I welcome your feedback. Cordially - Boomzilla

I'm switching from an AV receiver to a stereo integrated amp. I'd like to run my Heresies with a sub to extend the bass. The integrated amp has 8-ohm speaker outputs only - no 4-ohm capacity and no preamp outs. The subwoofer, a Definitive Technology Supercube, has speaker-level inputs and an internal crossover. Using that crossover, however, will probably degrade the sound. How can I use the subwoofer without using the internal crossover? If I hook the speakers and subwoofer in parallel, the amp will see two 8-ohm loads in parallel, equivalently 4-ohms, and will overheat. I'd prefer not to build a speaker-level to line-level converter if I can help it, although I can do so if I must. Creative suggestions?

My buddy did this with some "bookshelf speaker" stands. He doesn't have to deal with critters or kids, so it works OK. The speakers are against a back wall, and lose a little bass because they don't have the floor proximity, but he compensates with the (cough, cough) "tone control." Works OK for him.

Isn't it the truth! There's actually a way around this, though. Used (but still VERY high-quality) separates are typically available on e-Bay and elsewhere for a fraction of what they cost new. The performance difference is, honestly, minimal between the old and the new. For example, a new Audio Research vacuum tube preamplifier costs multiple thousands of dollars, while a used 1970's model on e-Bay can be had for a few hundreds. I, personally,find that the audio performance of the new and the old are very similar. The new, however, has remote control, more inputs, etc. If you can live without the "bells and whistles," antique audio performance is a much greater bargain.

I currently have a bottom-of-the-line Yamaha AV receiver (power rated only at 1KHz at about 50 watts/channel). I plan to drive a pair of Cornwalls, whose bass-reflex, port-loaded 15" woofers will probably require some high damping factor. I also have a (newly-acquired, not-yet-hooked-up) McIntosh C41-MC350 pair. The MC puts out 350 watts per channel. My question is... How much difference will I hear with the Mac gear? I know that 350 wpc is GROSS overkill for ANY normal loudspeaker (much less the highly-efficient Cornwall). I can sell the McIntosh gear & buy a significantly more hoity-toity AVR, should I choose to go that route. The bottom line is - assuming that I'll be running the Cornwalls full-range (as opposed to with a subwoofer), just where is the point of diminishing returns so far as amplification goes? Assuming that cost is not a major issue, and that the usage is to be approximately 50% music and 50% movies, what is reasonable on the amplification front? AV receivers (at least in the premium category) now have good power supplies, damping factors, and conservative designs. Is there REALLY much to be gained from the pre-power route? Your thoughts?

And I love you too, John [] I thought that was what I said. And that's why they specify most AV receivers' output ONLY at 1KHz?

The key to using any Sunfire, so far as I've seen, is to cross them over at a VERY low frequency. If they're used in their true element (i.e. as SUB-woofers instead as of woofers), then they don't fart so much (or if they do, it isn't noticeable). Increasing extension does increase distortion, but ONLY if all other factors are equal. The "house sized horn" you mentioned would have BOTH low frequency extension AND low distortion, for example. I must also politely disagree with you that the servo systems do not decrease distortion. Velodyne has some very good white papers on why this is so. I refer you to them on that topic. Finally, you ax what I'm running - I ** had ** a pair of Heresy IIs crossed over at 90 Hz to a M&K MX-350-THX sub. With the sub set flat, the two 12" drivers (used to "correct" each other in the same enclosure) would produce true subsonics (all be it with higher distortion although significantly less than any other sub I've heard). It sounded good, but I finally decided that a pair of Cornwalls would be more to my preference. The sub is sold & I'm waiting to find some Cornwalls before letting the Heresies go. Yes, I'll be "subsonics free" with the Cornwalls, but I've decided that I can live with that. I'd prefer K-horns, but I've no corners. If I don't find any Cornwalls, I could consider some Revel Performa F-30s again or else I'll just go back to a %)(&*&% subwoofer.

You're right if you're talking about plain cones in boxes. In fact, VERY few subwoofers rely on simple box/cone physics anymore. Some manufacturers, such as Velodyne, use accelerometers on their cones with sampling & feedback circuits to increase linearity. Others, such as Sunfire, use megawatt amplifiers to extend linearity. Most (good) sub manufacturers also include room equalization microphones and circuitry that extend the response of the sub in the specific acoustic environment in which the sub must work. These "tricks" do a good job of maximizing frequency response and minimizing distortion. Despite those tricks, you're completely right that bigger subwoofer enclosures are better subwoofer enclosures. We can agree to disagree on low frequency extension, but I agree wholeheartedly that such extension shouldn't come with the pricetag of more distortion in the bass fequencies I just LOVE engineers (LOL). I was speaking specifically of the linearity of the frequency response. Thanks for asking!

Actually, yeah - we can probably hear down to about 20-25 Hz with the ears. At or below that frequency, you "feel" the frequency in your chest & internal organs. At the live symphony, when the bass drum gets whacked, you not only hear the sound, you feel it (particularly if you're seated close to the stage). That's what I like to hear at home too. The low bass adds a significant amount of realism to the reproduction. Of course, with Klipsch Heritage speakers, none of them (not even the mighty K-Horn) produce actual fundamental notes below the mid 30s. Alas, a (good - even VERY good) subwoofer is needed in conjunction with the Klipsches to hear ANY real organ or synth fundamentals. Once you've heard a system that can do that, though, it's hard to do without. Does this necessity alleviate my complaints about subwoofers - not at all. A cheap sub sounds exactly like just what it is - a cheap sub. There ARE subs that will go low, clean, and flat. They just aren't cheap! Thiel, Revel, M&K, Sunfire, and Velodyne all make some fine subs. This is NOT to say that every model from those companies is a good product - only that some of their products that I've owned were very good. Other companies may make good subs too - I just haven't heard them. The majority of "subwoofers" on the market aren't really subs at all - they're powered woofers that have no chance of reaching subsonic frequencies. I hope this answered your question.

Well actually, more than you might think. It isn't that there are that many fundamentals down there (unless you're listening to organ or synth), but when the frequency response begins dipping, it just loses the real. Keep in mind that the half-power level (-3dB down point) gives out at 30, the real frequency response dip begins an octave above (at 60 Hz). There's REAL music there, and it just doesn't sound like music if the bottom isn't there. Of course, most speakers and subs aint even close to 30 Hz as a 3dB down point. Most subs and speakers give up somewhere about 40 Hz. If that's the case then everything below 80 Hz is actually tipped down. Also, don't forget the Fletcher-Munson effect, which makes human hearing significantly less sensitive to bass frequencies anyway. Yes, I'd agree that a mono bass line below 40 Hz should be inaudible. Most AV receivers, though, cut in the mono sub at considerably higher frequencies. Even if the user is trying to set the sub crossover down to 40 Hz, most main speakers are already struggling to produce 40 Hz. A smooth transition is unlikely unless the crossover is set at least an octave above the main speakers' 3dB down point.

OK, this'll probably be more of a rant than a question, but HERE's my answers to the title question in regards to MUSIC: Subwoofers don't go low enough - The average sub is designed for movie impact and has little if any response below 30 Hz. Many roll off significantly higher. For movie effects, it is only a small concession, but for music, those pieces that DO have content below the sub's roll-off suffer significantly. Subwoofers aren't clean enough - The average sub is designed to go loud, but without being particularly clean. Most subs don't publish distortion specs (for good reason). Those that do are one to ten orders of magnitude higher distortion than the speakers they supposedly supplement. The ability to play cleanly is of little importance for movies, but matters significantly on music. Subs that can play both loudly and cleanly usually require premium drivers & amps and cost more than their main speakers. Subwoofers aren't linear - This is my biggest peeve with subs. Most are designed as "one-note-boom-boxes." Again, for movie effects, who cares, but for music a linear response is necessary to accurately match the curve of the main speakers. Most subs just plain suuuuuuuck! Loss of stereo bass - Once crossed over to the monophonic " .1 " channel by the preamp or receiver, all bass notes below that frequency are reproduced by the single sub. For movies, who cares, but for music, there is often stereo bass information that just gets lost with a mono bass line. Even adding a second subwoofer doesn't restore this information, because both subs are still playing the (mono) output of the receiver. OK - I've gotten my peeves out there. My preference is for a pair of full-range, floor-standing loudspeakers that don't require subs at all. Yes, this puts more of a load on the amplifier to both supply current and to control the woofers via a good damping factor, but that isn't an impossible task (unless you're driving with a gutless AV receiver). Your thoughts?