Ski Bum
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Posts posted by Ski Bum
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I think you're being far too accommodating to the forces of evil, specifically brainless consumerism, but otherwise a meaty post.
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The audiophile boutique craziness exists because that very craziness enhances the listening experience! We should be embracing those realities, and even engineering them...
Like snake oil salesmen and homeopaths? That aspect encapsulates everything that's wrong with the hobby, and many of us cringe at the pseudoscientific marketing BS and out right lunacy that goes on. But whatever. If self delusion get's you off, more power to you.
None of that changes what measurements do tell us, but to get on this kick that somehow we can quantify the human experience is simply childish.This is an illogical deflection. The question has nothing to do with quantifying the human experience, but rather specific aspects of speaker performance which do indeed matter (to some of us at least).
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If you're lazy, you could have folks like Simply Speakers re-cone them. They're in Florida. Another reputable re-coner would be Midwest Speaker Repair in Minneapolis. Depending on where you're at, you may have a local place that will do it for you. There are several in Denver for example, although none quite as reputable as Simply Speakers and Midwest, both of who I've dealt with in the past. They're solid. Get some of those 15" perfed metal speaker covers while you're at it, those shops sell those too.
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How would you quantify it?
I think it typically shows up as "maximum continuous output", with some sort of qualifier, i.e. max continuous output with 1db of thermal compression. That's what the old Heritage specs specified, if my memory serves, those old spec sheets seem to have disappeared down the memory hole. At any rate, at some point the acoustical output fails to keep up with the electrical input, which is measurable.
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Typical specs provided by speaker manufactures do not provide an indication of how well a speaker performs as SPL level increases.
That's true. Those makers of puny, direct radiator type speakers don't want you to realize their limitations.
Klipsch used to publish compression specs for the old Heritage speakers, and still do for the Cinema line...
Isn’t this a critical area of performance, especially if one has a large room and/or likes to listen at fairly loud levels?Indeed it is, at least if realism is the goal. You'll see this disclosed for the Cinema line, as well as similar offerings from the likes of JBL, QSC, Danley Sound Labs, etc, but those are all cases of product intended for big venues, where headroom is a critical consideration. In a home environment, getting to reference levels is much, much easier, even with less sensitive speakers. It's just not a huge concern in the broader market.
PWK said something to the effect that 99% of the folks don't care about the quality of reproduced music, and that his speakers are for the more discriminating 1%. Wide dynamic range (no compression) is one ingredient to the recipe.
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Not too surprised since you never mentioned the typical gain-related bugaboos (amplifying noise). If the noise floor is already inaudible, reducing the gain controls on the amp would only serve to make it more inaudible, which doesn't make sense, as you can't get less audible than inaudible. High sensitivity speakers put one closer to that audible threshold, but if you're not quite there (by virtue of squeaky clean line level output from your AVR), you're good to go, and it's time to rock out to some music.
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If you're not suffering from 1) audible hiss, or 2) an overly sensitive volume control, don't worry about it. If you are experiencing those, you'll improve s/n and have less of a hair-trigger volume control on the pre-amp if you reel in the gain control on the amp. The general rule with system gain staging is to run upstream stages fairly hot (while still avoiding clipping), and only raise the gain on the amps high enough to achieve the desired listening level. With higher sensitivity speakers such as ours, that is the recipe for a system with the proverbial black background. I only use amps with gain controls in the Klipsch rig for that very reason.
What amp and pre are you working with?
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I just looked at the Marantz, at best it appears to be an OK surround receiver
You need to look closer. I own one of these, and it's actually quite good in all the ways that actually matter, it just happens to be an AVR and thus lacks audiophile snob appeal. Excellent as a pre amp too if the OP wants to throw the tube amp in the mix.
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Even Graham suggest scratching the gambling itch, it's human nature after all. If the portion of one's assets they allocate to "fun with trading" is but a tiny fraction of their overall investable funds, I think that's ok.
I'm not sure who would settle for 4% returns. DGI typically gets one in the low double digit percentages (historical market trend is up, so necessarily there is both growth and income involved). 4% is generally the yield target, but the sort of companies that withstand analysis (in the Graham sense) are exactly the ones likely to prosper over time.
Financial independence is not boring, even if the most proven method to achieve it is.
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I'm more interested in short term gain potentials.
Well, that's your problem right there. You like to gamble.
Over the long haul, the boring, old fashioned Benjamin Graham approach will beat the gamblers each and every time.
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Proton was a Taiwanese manufacturer that NAD contracted with. Their "Power On Demand" on this amp is essentially similar to NAD's "Power Envelope" trickery, basically a dual rail supply allowing the attention grabbing dynamic power numbers (and they do indeed hit them). Serious power, and those meters! Very cool old amp. Almost wish I were closer.
GLWS
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It shouldn't prevent a sale, but if you sell them "as is" you may not get the same as you would if they were in pristine condition. Fortunately, the dust cap can be repaired or even replaced. Simply Speakers, Midwest Speaker Repair, Parts Express, etc. all sell replacement dust caps, and it's a simple exacto knife and glue job.
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my center stage, is a bit left side, and i plug my Emotiva, directly my power amp on my Belle, recently i had the chance to listen other power amp, and still my sound is a bit left, not center and soundstage a bit poor...
Rule out the low hanging fruit. I would start at the transducers and work back through the system. Make sure each Belle is fully functional. Listen to each driver individually, and listen to the speakers both alone and together, making sure what's hitting your ears is balanced. Next, how are your local acoustics coloring things? Asymetrical layout and proximity to walls resulting in the image shift, perhaps? Make sure you work on the room first. Assuming you can get the speaker/room thing as optimal as can be, only then look further upstream for trouble. You may still be faced with placement restrictions that can be addressed by a balance control, or an amp with individual left and right input sensitivity, aka "gain" controls, to effect the same thing.
I don't think the Emo or the Benchmark offers balance controls, or tone controls, or any sort of processing for that matter. When will these guys start producing a two channel pre w/ proper bass management, PEQ, and sub outs? (Sorry for the rant.)
So, i was wondering with better dac, better soundstage? or is it just snake oil that will help sound stageI think you have a misconception about what a DAC can and cannot do. Whoever told you that a more expensive DAC improved the soundstage was probably the one trying to sell it to you. Soundstage is a combo of just a few key ingredients: good speakers, placed optimally within their particular acoustic environment, and playing back high quality source material. Some folks use surround processing to embellish the soundfield.
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should i'll hear improvement for the stage and sound, or it is just snake oil?
I'm not sure what you're suggesting is snake oil. Emo is a solid budget brand, and Benchmark is a solid brand that charges a bit more. The Benchmark probably touts superior specs, but both of those pre-amps should be audibly transparent, and neither should alter the sound stage. Whichever one can push the most volts will have a potentially audible S/N advantage, and greater flexibility with amp pairing and gain staging. If it were me, I would go with the Benchmark.
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40' x 25' x 12'? I think they would be just right for that space. Although, I suppose it would help to further assess the OP's needs before blindly recommending something, just that that particular listing has everything he needs except a source, ready to go, at a reasonable price, not to mention it will crush anything aimed at the consumer/home market.
Coffeeman, how 'bout some pictures of the coffee shop, and a bit more specifics on your desired goals, budget?
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Hafler dynaquad style? There are a few of us nuts around here who do such things.
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Good point, Cantilope, the "There's no pre-amp as perfectly transparent as literally no pre-amp" approach.
I used to have an almost ideal room for my fortes, and the system consisted of source->amp->speakers, and it was truly Klipschtastic. Currently, the larger room and less than ideal room coupling demands eq, so a pre-amp that offers a bit more than basic tone controls is in play.
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Don't you already have a thread on this?
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/163729-for-sale-kp-362682-setup/?p=2014512
Fly those 963's instead of RP240 or whatever.
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Isn't someone selling a whole KP396/MWM setup in the garage sale section, w/ amps and a mixer? Here it is (merely a KP362/382 rig, no massive woofing machine):
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/163729-for-sale-kp-362682-setup/?p=2014512
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That "accessory" loop is merely an extra tape/processor loop. The output is full hot (not downstream from the volume control). Do not use it to feed the crown amp.
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It doesn't say how they did this but I'd love to see inside. I bet they have no analog crossovers and use a DSP chip to time align, crossover, EQ attenuate, and D/A. Probably a class D amp like all the others.
I think if they were fully active that they would at least mention it. The fact that the second speaker gets a single amplified input tells me there is still a passive network in there.
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Hope they're a hit. I would love to see this treatment to the RP-160.
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I agree w/ WMcD about pre amps, exceptional performance should be fairly easily attained and at reasonable costs, and it is. I would add that while amp choice should be thoughtfully considered, good, clean watts and the ability to drive low impedance loads is not particularly rare or expensive.
As it's always been, the most important things are the speakers, the room they're in, and the quality of the source material. Source components, pre amps, and amps are small potatoes in comparison.
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I really liked the light colored curved fabric covers someone was showing off in another thread. Made the Jubs look like giant Quad ESLs, very cool.
But I think we could be drifting off topic.
Dynamic compression and distortion vs. SPL
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
I have a pretty good idea, and you should too, as this is just the inverse square law in action. Keep in mind the context of that line you quoted, which was a comparison to commercial speakers hitting reference levels at a club or concert venue, i.e. a large space and greater distances to the audience. In those settings, headroom is one of the most important considerations. Domestic use is a completely different situation: the distances are far less, the spaces to fill are far smaller.