maxg

Let's see...one in the front seat and the other in the trunk. What problem? Mas, There's an engine in the trunk. All, Now - I have been away from this thread for about 2 hours - playing with my daughter who has now fallen asleep. I see there are some doubts being expressed as to Mas' ability to produce what he claims. I am expecting something akin to the single unifying theory of the universe as applied to systems / rooms etc whereby I can nummerically predict system synergies both between components and between system/room. Are we saying I will be disappointed? What compartment is that in the front? Don't look! A trunk??? Oh, and the numeric answer? You win the prize ! But you're several pages late! Go back and look on page 9! I don't have to produce... Heyser already has. [] You want me to drill holes in the hood so the dog can breath? Have you seen under the hood of a 911? What do you think I have - a toy poodle? I'll try to further this discussion in the following post (not the car one)

Let's see...one in the front seat and the other in the trunk. What problem? Mas, There's an engine in the trunk. All, Now - I have been away from this thread for about 2 hours - playing with my daughter who has now fallen asleep. I see there are some doubts being expressed as to Mas' ability to produce what he claims. I am expecting something akin to the single unifying theory of the universe as applied to systems / rooms etc whereby I can nummerically predict system synergies both between components and between system/room. Are we saying I will be disappointed?

Mas, Start posting - in a new thread - I for one will be very interested. the only request I have is to not get too bogged down in the maths - but to stay high level on the concepts until the dire need for math rears its head. Just as a guideline - I didnt understand much of what you posted in this thread.[]

If I weren't using high efficiency speakers, I'd certainly use 100W or more. PWK recommended 20W as a *minimum* for his speakers, and I'm fine with 60W. Someone trying to sneak by with 1.5W is severely limiting himself (and limiting the signal). With your constant reference to 20 watts I though that was what you actually had. I would imagine with 60 wpc and KHorns clipping would indeed be a very rare event. 1.5 wpc (or any arbitary number come to that - below the 20 you hold so dear that is) COULD prove limiting depending on the size of your room, the sensitivity of your speakers, your listening habits, prefered volumes etc etc. All part and parcel of making informed choices according to your needs. A Porsche 911 is a great car - but not so much use when you have 2 dogs.

Mas, I think you might be agreeing with me too - but in a very technical way and I dont know anything about "the Heyser Spiral and Nyquist spiral ". I will search for it online and see if I can understand what it is refering to in some vague way - probably unsuccessfully. As for this: "After all, if its ALL subjective, no one's opinion is more valid than another's! Now, that should stick in the subjective 'audiophile's' craw! " Doesn't stick in my craw at all, although I would caveat it with the following: Even in the complete absence of the ability to explain technically, in accounting for differences that may or may not be observable, experience counts for a lot. If I were to declare ZYX component as the best available at any price one would rightly want to ask what other examples of that component I have heard. Of course this would be a silly claim anyway as no-one has heard all the components out there - but even a more molified claim - it is a damn good example - must be relative to something - or a lot of somethings. The most important opinion - even more important than that of massive experience - is that of ownership. If I own and I like it / am happy with it - or even dont like it / am not happy with it - that one counts a bunch - for the owner.

I have read this 3 times and dont get it Mark - sorry. If I change the output stage of the CD player the signal received by the amp is identical? So how do I hear a difference?

Who, I am pleasantly surprised you agreed with my theory as we appear to approach the whole subject of audio from very different standpoints. Whilst I understand the desire to obtain objective measures to explain why things work - or why we make the choices we do - does anyone actually buy a stereo system - or a component for that stereo system "objectively"? Funnily enough I have done that once - thinking about it - when I was struggling with my linear tracking arm and had to sit down and work out from first principles exactly what I needed from the cartridge spec-wise and then matched to them to choose the cart. Worked too - but it really was a one off for me. When you go to audition a new piece of equipment what measuring equipment do you take with you to predict system synergy? I tend to rely on my experience and my ear. And to answer your question in a later post - a Yamaha MX-D1 500 wpc digital beast!

Tom, When it comes to using terms loosely I am one of the more guitly - agreed and accepted. I know what I want to say - but not always how to say it due to the paucity of my technical language - if not my flowing prose. Just to pick up on a couple of points: "My perspective is that the chain of signal reproduction should be exactly that - "reproduction" of what was on the recording (which may be a performance, or it may be something "created" in the studio)." I dont think anyone here is disagreeing with that - although how we know is another matter entirely - subject to the measuring equipment you mentioned that I dont have (and didnt understand past the caveating). "I believe this notion, which I agree certainly agree with, is at the heart of MAS's argument. If folks want a "warmer" sound or whatever, then an equalizer is better way to achieve that goal." Now "warmer" or whatever is interesting. Suppose I have colder(?) speakers, or source - would a warmer amp not make sense? Why add an additional box into the mix if you dont need one? Further, how easy is it to affect the corrections you want without the test equipment you mentioned? On the few ocasions I have played with moderately sophisticated equalizers I have found it very easy to totally screw up the sound and extremely hard to invoke even a moderate improvement. On the other hand - I have swapped amps in a system and been floored by the improvement. "Using an amp or tube CD player, or speaker cables that someone has "snuck" an inductor into is not a great substitute." Well people do a lot of mods to both sources and amps - often with dramatic effect. One would imagine there is a modifying of the original signal going on (a tube output stage on a CD player for example). It might not be the ideal - but if it achieves an improvment in the sound....why not? "The pieces in the chain should be neutral." There we do disagree. The sum of the pieces in the chain that go together to make up the system should be neutral. The chain, in this case, includes the room - for me. Whether that chain is made up of entirely neutral components or far from neutral components that serve to balance each other out matters not one jot, surely? I am not sure why I am in this discussion - I dont even own a tube amp anymore. Paul, By extrapolation of your quick dig at SET amps the same can be said for your PP amp at 20 watts. It will clip more often than a 100 watt SS amp. Therefore the SS amp is a better option? Obviously my amp is the BEST option of all. I defy anyone with Klipsch speakers to make it clip.

Random thoughts: To talk about amps operating in their linear range is somewhat limiting on the discussion. Listen to any dynamic piece at volume and unless you are listening at very low levels or with truely massive power you will be clipping the amp at points. At these points most people would accept that tube amps clip more gracefully than SS amps. It this important? How loud to you listen (peak loud)? Soundstaging may be totally the invention of the sound engineer - but I would guess it is done for a reason other than giving him a job. In my experience the ability to decern a credible soundstage from a recording adds greatly to my enjoyment - real or otherwise. Are we, perhaps confusing real with realistic? The effect of listening to music with a created soundstage is more realistic to me than where there is none. Rubber Soul, for example, is a recording I find harder to enjoy because the singers are all hard left or hard right with nothing appearing in the centre. Wasn't the entire invention of stereo to enable this effect? A more realistic portayal of the music than mono could achieve? Note - not real, realistic. Linearity in the normal operating range - i.e. when not clipping. I have heard many times that tube amps actually display less distortion than SS amps WHEN OPERATING AT LOW POWER LEVELS. I do not know this to be true but suspect it might be. The THD figure, as I understand it, is with the amp operating at, or about, its higher power output levels and therefore may not give any indication of the performance of the amp for listening purposes - depending on the habits of the listener. Let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that there is an amp out there that is totally linear in its performance with no distortion at all within its operating range. Further, that that operating range is sufficient to cover any needs of the listener. Whatever the frequency, whatever the volume, its output level is totally linear with the input level - an exact match - straightwire with gain achieved. What about the speakers? I will break from the bullet point layout to expand on this a little - as it is surely not clear as yet. No speaker I have ever come across is linear in its operation. We all know that the anti-horn brigade come down like a ton of bricks on the distortions inherent in horn design. They are not wrong - they are merely ignoring (because maybe it is not important to their ears) the other benefits of a horn loaded design. Here is the thing. If matching of amp and speakers means anything other than finding something with the right amount of power to drive the things then surely I might WANT an amp that minimizes the distortions of my speakers. If my speakers are very bright sounding a more rolled off amp might well make them sound better to the listener's ears than one that is truely flat through the frequency range. Of course - you could apply that same "rolling off" from other points in the chain. I might choose a source that is more rolled off and this totally linear amp. There are many ways to skin this particular cat. I have concluded therefore, that a system (source to speaker to room to listener) is actually a summing of errors that gives a listenable result - where it is implemented correctly. The old addage - 2 wrongs does not make a right does not, IMO, apply to home audio. An audiophile is not merely someone who walks into a shop and buys the best possible equipment to make his system. An audiophile is a person who takes time to assess how well given pieces of equipment match together to create the sonic illusion he (or she) is looking for. I could go out and buy simply the best of everything according any given magazine and then discover to my horror that the sonic result is far from perfection. My $100,000 amp does not drive my $150,000 speakers very well afterall. My $100,000 turntable does not match very well with my $15,000 arm and my $12,000 cartridge. My $50,000 pre-amp has an impedance mismatch with my $100,000 amp etc. etc. Each maybe perfection personified in another system but in this - money no object system - it didnt work. To apply all of the above to the discussion at hand and to the speakers upon which these fora are based it would appear that for the slight majority on here tube amps offer a better price/performance compromise than SS amps.

If you have been visiting regularly there is something rather impressive about being here for 6 years and making 30 something posts. I feel I should print this one and hang it on the wall. I mean - Maclaren F1's were more common than your posts. I wonder if this has a value on ebay.......

Any chance of a little more info? Like: What is your current amp? What are your current speakers? What music do you listen to? What source? What, if anything, do you not like about your current setup? etc. etc.

Cant disagree with any of that. In the next room AND on an air bladder - wow. Just to add another factor into the mix - I think the arm design has a lot to do with isolation too. With my arm the armlet is actually attached only by a ball joint to the main arm and otherwise freely suspended. I imagine that greatly reduces resonances. In fact - I can whack the side of the TT with my palm whilst it is playing and nothing happens - it is quite a cool demo to do.

One of my friends (who is quite respectable now) had something of a wild youth. He is an expert at getting into cars (do not ask). Anyway at a party he was mentioned this ability and no-one believed him. So we all trouped downstairs and he opened everyone of our cars (about 10 different models and makes). The longest it took him was about 50 seconds - no damage to any of them. I shall not tell you all how - but we were all mightily impressed. Having seen that what irritates me the most is when some idiot breaks the window of your car to get in - there is just no need for that and it is a complete PITA getting a replacement window: "Hello - the dirvers side window of my car has been broken. Its an ZXY model 2." "Is it tinted?" "Yes" "What color?" "Green" "We only have the brown tints in stock right now" ........

Max, if you could arrange for that performance, it would make an excellent instructional video! Best I could do at short notice. Arriving at Athens airport:

Not sure what it would achieve. I would imagine the remaining posts would be extremely difficult to follow where they are in response to items that have been deleted. DWI - I read your deleted posts as it happens so all was not lost. It was a very good post. One thing - if you really want to save what you write for posterity then you can always copy and paste it into word and save it there. Actually - as I repeat myself so many times on this forum that might be a very good idea anyway.

If you have solid floors then the benefit of a wall mount would be minimal. For wooden floors where problems are encountered like those described by Larry then the benefits would be huge. In effect all you are doing by wall mounting is to swap the source of vibration to the TT from floor to wall. Both will carry some vibration whatever you do - but a decent TT setup should be able to deal with it - and one or other, if not both, should be fairly low level with luck. In the ideal world you should probably place the TT in an adjoining room - well away from system vibration - but it is hardly a practical solution and is obviously dependent on what is in that room. I am lucky enough to have solid floors. A herd of elephants could tap dance in clogs in front of my TT and it wouldn't skip a beat.

INCORIGIBLE!!!

OK - back on topic: Klipsch is well known in many parts of the world but not the UK where it never sold well. Being from the UK myself I have never heard of them until I moved to Greece - where they are one of the dominant brands. Coming from the English - laid back style of presentation (Wharfdale, BBC monitors etc.) I cannot tell you how much shock I went into when I first encountered a KHorn in full bloom. I had never heard anything play that loud and that clean. It was hearing the Klipsch sound that really got my into music and audiophilia. I guess it is a sound that either does it for you or it doesn't - it did for me.

Another superb response or 2 from Larry covering all the bases. I am not sure the Dvorak Cello is superior to the Elgar although it is longer. The Du Pre is certainly the Elgar to have. Interesting variants on the Cello concerto theme come from Boccherini and Haydn. Boccherini actually did 4 Cello concertos if memory serves and I can never remember which one I prefer. The Haydn one is all Classical and makes a nice alternative to the romantic period pieces. For a more modern twist you might want to look at Schostakovich who did a very nice Cello Sonata and Lindgren's Cello concerto (although to be honest it is not really my thing). Avoid Tippet's - that truely is horrid IMHO. As Larry says - for Organ music Toccata and Fugue is a must have. Sadly I am hopeless with CD's so I think a browse of amazon is probably in order.

This is how it starts Phil. My first TT when I got back into vinyl was a Project RPM4 with a Project phono box and a project cartridge. I was just lucky (or not) that the dealer set the thing up for me from the off - otherwise my audio might have taken a whole different turn. Glad you are starting to get some good sounds out of the TT now - got any common recordings between CD and vinyl you can compare?

You are a top 25 poster on these forums and 99% are in 2 channel. You are posting in this thread. You bought yourself a TT for your 40th. Someone calls you at 1 am (waking you up) to tell you about an amp - and you are pleased. Someone pops into your house and wants to hear your stereo and you know 25 recordings that you have to use as demos. Product distributors call you for information on their speakers / turntables / cartridges / tube amps ..... You are a member of an audiophile club and proud of it. You have appeared in a video about audiophiles. When your wife wants to find you she starts by calling audio shops - BEFORE she tries your mobile. You cry when the carpets are removed each summer because of the acoustical change. You panic when your wife would like to re-arrange the living room - which you refer to as the listening room. You can think of another 50 things to post here.... Guilty!!

Most people lye(?) the other way - they are married but claim not to be. I also have 2 heads come to that - but only have enough blood to run one at a time (Robin Williams gag). And if you want coincidences: I started going out with my wife on January 17, 1984. I married her on June 28th 1993. Get this - she met her husband on the self same first date above and married him on the latter - what are the odds?

That beats me, I can barely carry my wife. I can carry a tune.

The problem is what you "know" changes with every new person you align yourself with. Today it's the bad cowboy. Who will it be tomorrow? I think I used the wrong word (false) I should of used "misleading" or maybe "exagerated" Craig It is all about deciding what is the most important link in the chain - and ignoring the fact that for the chain to work all links are equally important.

I am not sure if it is the forum that has its ups and downs or it is us. I have been here for a while (5 years?) and it waxes and wanes for me too. What I have noticed about myself is that I am ever more focused on specific aspects of this hobby of ours and so the posts that are interesting to me are consequently less common. I may, for example, opine on a pair of speakers, but if there is a thread on crossovers I am unlikely to take much part. In fact, unless it is a thread that is growing like topsy I probably wont even open it. I would guess this is much the same for others. Dean, for example, is probably far more likely to post in an X-over thread than in a vinyl thread. As for the lack of fighting - I dont really miss it too much and think Ami takes much of the credit for getting it under control. Some may not think that is a good thing - I, for one, disagree. Thebes - thanks [:$] Dean - we really need to get you to sit down in front of a system with a really good, well setup TT - bring your very best CD's for comparison.