Dave A
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Posts posted by Dave A
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1 minute ago, ODS123 said:
Sorry but still unconvinced. So are you saying Roy chose an inferior material for the Cornwall IV's? ..That the speakers would sound better if made from BB??
Also, while MDF may be less expensive, it's harder on tooling and it's heavier so more costly to ship a finished speaker.
I gave up trying to convince you of anything some time ago. However you asked a civil question so I gave you the courtesy of a real answer. I wonder, can you see others from the mountain top?
For what it is worth BB is tougher on tooling then MDF. Ask me how I know
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3 hours ago, Marvel said:
The Ovations aren't solid body guitars. They are acoustic guitars with the 'body' made of a synthetic material (originally helicopter blades). The tops are still spruce, maybe cedar on some. Rainsong guitars are carbon fiber, and pretty much no affected by fluctuations in humidity. They actually sound good. Never been a fan of the Ovations. THey project great, but hard to hear them as a player, as the body doesn't give any/much sound to the performer/player.
Yes I know that so perhaps you misunderstood I was talking about two things here. Ovations and solid body guitars.
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1 hour ago, CWelsh said:
Ovation uses a composite material for the back and sides of their acoustic guitars. You would probably get a kick out of reading their marketing materials touting the clear superiority of their "space-age" product.
Many solid body guitars use plywood or various sorts of particle board for the bodies. MDF has been used, but it is generally considered too heavy. Discussions of tone woods for guitars is ever bit as contentious as anything in the audio world.
I am aware of the Ovations and for my discussion I deliberately did not include solid body guitars. I should have been a bit more specific I suppose in regard to pro venues and state that the ones referenced are things like classical stringed chamber groups, symphonies and orchestral venues.
1 hour ago, Edgar said:It is my understanding that woods used for stringed instruments are selected for their contribution to the tone, while loudspeaker enclosure materials are selected for their lack of contribution to the tone.
I think everything has a tone and believe it can enhance or degrade.
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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:
You said baltic sounds better. Please explain.
Roy, if you're still reading this thread, what are your thoughts? Would the new CW4 sound better if it was made from BB?
I'll acknowledge that it makes a cabinet more resistant to water damage but it's hard to worry about that risk when none of my other gear is water-resistant.
I have noticed that wood selection makes a difference in many areas. After making some things out of Curly Maple it dawned on me that wood with a curly wood grain pattern was used in the sides of things like Violins. Rather then being just for looks the curly wood had a specific purpose. So does the selection of other specific woods used in acoustic instrument bodies. I have not seen any high quality acoustic stringed instruments made of man made material in any professional venue in videos where you can see what the musicians are playing.
Some time ago I read a comment on how some of the speaker builders in Nashville preferred Poplar Plywood for motorboards and used 1.25" and 1" because of the tone it produced. One day I am taking apart a Chorus 1 because there was so much cat piss on it that the cabinet was not usable. 1" Poplar plywood and I thought hmmm.
One day I decided to try something in my shop. I had some MDF, Chinese Baltic Birch(real trash by the way), Baltic Birch, Fir plywood and regular plywood. So I cut same size squares out and tapped them with a hammer to see what they might sound like. Not quite the same thing as drivers mounted on a board would do but I figured that the hammer tap method would be a decent indicator and easily audible by ear. The two most unappealing were MDF and that odious China BB and the most pleasing was Baltic Birch.
As an observation here with speaker builders in Nashville and in talking to vendors like Nashville Plywood I asked what was the wood the high end custom speaker builders around here use. Baltic Birch was the answer for durability and sound quality as both need to be there with pro venues like touring groups. Now yes there are many bands and music centers that use JBL or other pro speakers but I found it interesting that those who really wanted a specific quality of sound and sought out custom speaker builders selected BB most often.
I have found in welding and machining that there is a set of proven methods that have yielded best results. Deviation from those may yield good results but not best results. To me the selection of wood used in stringed instruments and speaker cabinets is no different and I selected artisans who use wood over CPA and MBA penny pinchers who dictate OK + economical over best and not cheap. I seek a specific end result and I rely on people who have done good things to save my time and money in not reinventing things. Good recipes if you follow them yield good results.
So for better or worse this is the selection process I have made and my reasons for doing so.
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14 hours ago, ODS123 said:
Tone? Please explain why. I can see durability and water resistance (for outdoor theaters/ amusement parks, etc..) but not tone. Curious why this would be.
Vandersteen, Paradigm, PSB, and virtually EVERY other high-end speaker mfg prefers MDF.
Would a CW 4 made entirely of baltic plywood sound better than one made w/ MDF?
I think another myth is about to be called out.
Same tired line every time this comes up. However I have practical experience through actual builds and experimentation and handling both MDF and Baltic cabinets. As far as I can tell your experience is limited to only pre-built things which you can buy and then since you bought them they then become the world standard by which all other things are found lacking.
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Decided it was not worth commenting on.
However @Travis In Austin #3 Baltic Birch is the correct superior material for water resistance, tone and durability. Exceptional speaker cabinets are made from this.
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2 hours ago, ODS123 said:
Wow! In all of my years of participating in online forums I have never had my views more grotesquely mischaracterized. I don’t believe Klipsch pro gear is junk, so I never said it, and I have never implied it.
It was you who said modern Klipsch heritage speakers made with MDF are junk. In brief I said the pro Klipsch gear is made with plywood because it is meant to be mounted and used in PA settings. You persisted saying the MDF gear is junk because it is difficult to repair or refinish if it gets wet. Which is a ridiculous criticism because none of the other gear in my, or anyone else’s, system is waterproof.
I invite you to find any of my comments that suggest the Pro gear is junk.
In the thread "Best Cornwall....?" starting on page 4 and on for a while. Page 4 is also where you basically said Roy does not know what he is doing. It was worth digging that old thread up and re-reading it was fun. Invitation accepted.
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4 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:
The only thing laughable is how you think you need to "save" the audiophile community from themselves. Broken record indeed......
Absolutely. Somehow his what he thinks trumps what everyone else thinks and I remember his Pro Klipsch Gear is junk meant only for train stations diatribe. MDF too was quite fun.
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1 hour ago, Edgar said:
I have a 49 year old Brooks saddle on my mountain bike. I'm pretty sure that it's broken-in.
Yup and I have a 68 year old butt I think is broken in too.
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45 minutes ago, CWOReilly said:
Driver break in. I recently bought a second pair of SMAHL tweeters for my La Scalas. The first seconds sounded horible. Then they smoothed out. From crackle to crystal.
You bet they break in. Sound gritty until then.
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24 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:
.5 db over at least an octave is very audible. Again take it for what it’s worth but I’m not going to ignore or dismiss my experience.
In the for what it is worth category. Working with a fixed resistor L-Pad recently and attenuation from 9 to 9.5db clearly changed the balance of the instruments to each other and the center stage presence moved from slightly above and in front of me to right straight in front of me. It sounded more like the chamber groups I have heard in person. Going to 10db killed it and wonderful became just ho hum music.
That was a really fine post on Violins @travis
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Anyone here have two they would like to trade for some MAHL'S? I have a set of KP-320's I would like to restore but the woofers are shot.
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in Garage Sale
13 hours ago, Schu said:Which version of the 402 are these... with the brackets and everything?
Version 1 of 3.
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in Garage Sale
1 hour ago, 001 said:no worries , I own lots of speakers, and some are better than others
I would like to see your favorite setup if you don't mind sharing.
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No doubt Jim has a great system which I was lucky enough to hear in person. I think he himself had most to do with the results though ideas came from a number of places. Lots of work there.
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18 minutes ago, Vivi said:
KP480 is what we use with La Scalas for a club room. It's a front loaded sub with radiator that was designed to go under the La Scala. It more than does the job. Heaps floating around on second hand market in the states, I think
There is not a heap of Klipsch floating around and pro gear is HARD to find and all Klipsch has jumped in price as much as 100% in the last year and a half. It is insane what people pay now and I remember a short time ago all the whining about $900 La Scalas that sell today for $2,000 all day long.
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14 hours ago, babadono said:
DEEEEEEEETROIT...it's a nice place to be...from.
If you want to know where LA is headed look at Detroit today. Best view of all these big cities anymore is the one in your rear view mirror.
1 hour ago, michaelwjones said:"You know he has a $28K set of loudspeakers to sell now, right?"
Yeah he would fit right in at Audiogon with the highbrow hucksters. I like to go there for fun at times and see how the $30K power cable dudes are doing.
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1 hour ago, Shiva said:
Did someone say Cobo Hall? Been there as a kid. It wasn't audio related, it was much more important. Big Time Wrestling. 😀 Saw Haystacks Calhoun, Bobo Brazil and The Sheik. Many more besides, but those were the only names that popped up in my mind this a.m.
PS audio equipment over at ASR doesn't test very well.
Oh yeah and Randy Savage and BoBo VS the Sheik, Pampero Firpo, Dick the Bruiser and many others. Injury list posted on Monday on the more serious grudge matches. State Fairgrounds too and those were the days. And yes Alice Cooper and the Stones
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11 hours ago, Fido said:
Post image or it didn’t happen
😆
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On 5/8/2022 at 10:13 PM, MMurg said:
There was no promised date. I went in knowing that. I wanted to be sure I was near the front of the line. As someone who worked in product development for years, I know that new product launches can be delayed by many things. I was told that pandemic had put the Hope plant way behind in production and it would take some time to catch up before they started on a new product. So, I've given Klipsch a bunch of slack on this. When they announced the Jubilee at CES 2021, the video that Roy made at the time just said, "summer of 2021". I figured that would probably be more like the fall/winter 2021. Now I'm just hoping I see them in "summer of 2022". My patience is wearing a bit thin.
More then you know. For instance I want to build a speaker using 25mm Baltic Birch. It has not been available since last August and my only alternative is 18mm which I really don't want to do. Regular plywood and especially that odious MDF are out so many months later here we are in never never land. Right now if I want to order B&C drivers just for me it takes 5 to 7 MONTHS lead time. Worker shortages, especially skilled labor ones are pervasive and right now in many cases unsolvable. So the only answer is reduce hours open for business or cut back on what you make because your staff shortfall can only go so far. Eminence regularly runs out of drivers and all the time you can go to Parts Express and see out of stock everywhere. Often it take three months to see items back in stock and you can't afford to buy gobs of every single thing you use. This means that you concentrate on your most profitable and largest selling items first and deal with the rest as you can. I can only imagine the supply chain problems Klipsch faces and they have no control over much of it.
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12 hours ago, ODS123 said:
Besides, I'd rather sacrifice a tiny bit of audiophile perfection so as to more easily enjoy music in the company of others. Great music - cued up by myself, or others - needs to be shared. IMHO
Yes indeed and I always enjoy doing so.
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On 5/6/2022 at 1:09 PM, mikebse2a3 said:
It’s not panel resonance you hear…. think more like acoustical standing wave resonance that is suppressed in the new design.
miketn
You figure that is partly what the shroud around the tweeter is meant to do?
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6 hours ago, Flevoman said:
@Dave A just curious, did you hear the CW4 play on a tubeamp or on a SS amp.
SS and it was a QSC theater amp Roy used if I remember right.
3 hours ago, mustang_flht said:CWIII also has the same wooden braces as CWIV. On the other hand CWIV has a plywood board at the top of the enclosure this is perhaps the difference with CWIII which does not have the plywood board.
I have never really looked closely at the CW3 cabinet so it is good to know they added braces. Even if the CW3 I heard had those braces in there it still sounded muffled and boomy to me compared to the CW4. To be honest after fiddling with CW1's and 2's my prejudice against CW's was large enough that I had lost all interest in them.
The CW4 is more then just the plywood top which I was not aware of. New design crossover, a foam lined open backed shroud built around the tweeter which uses new drivers. New midhorn setup and I have no idea if the woofer was tweaked. It is a complete system integration different then the first three versions. The tractrix ports for instance do not add much but they do add some improvement and 5% here and there as an aggregate add up to real improvement. I think those ports were the least of the improvements though.
1 hour ago, ODS123 said:And BTW I've not heard ANY resonating from my CW3's. Not once. And I've played every imaginable genre of music from whisper levels to 100db. So while it's possible they've reduced resonances from a measurable standpoint, that alone is not proof the improvement will be audible. ..Kinda like McIntosh (or any other amp mfg) making a big deal about reducing THD another .0002% in their latest amplifier.
If they have bracing as pointed out then the objectionable resonance would be stopped. I was not aware they had that until today. My prejudice against CW3's was based on what I heard in Hope against the CW4 and past experience with CW1's and 2's.
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4 hours ago, ODS123 said:
If you're implying I'm a solipsist I think you need to re-read your freshman year Philosophy text book.
I am stating it as fact, not implying it. I see once again you are right.
To the OP. Jimbo stated the improvements very well and I agree 100% with his comment. Ultimately you need to listen to both, before buying either. Big boomy box sound was a big enough problem for me that I quit looking for old CW's to fix up because I did not like the box effect. Which by the way was still there with the CW3. The CW4 has new mids and HF and has bracing from the front to back in two places which eliminates that tone killing resonance effect you get with big pieces of wood. When I want to hear the resonance of deeper bass stringed instruments for instance I want only that and not the added interference from board vibration. There will always be some I know but it needs to be muted. For my taste the CW4 is more lifelike and noticeably more so than it's forerunners.
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BS Button List of worthy Myths
in 2-Channel Home Audio
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@CWelsh I can believe that and add to it the density of the wood. Northern hardwood is denser and mills better when I am cutting Black Walnut and Red Oak for instance. When you get right down to it the variables are considerable. Scientists are trying to uncover what makes Stradivarius violins special – but are they wasting their time?