CWelsh

Changing the subject just a little... not much... I'm sitting here listening to Steely Dan's aja streaming in ultra hi-def. I'm in bliss and I'm not even a huge Dan fan. I've been playing with speaker placement over the last couple of weeks. Klipsch recommends keeping the Forte IIIs within about 10 inches from the back wall for best bass performance. I tried that and found the bass pretty subdued. Plus, the sound stage was just flat. I pulled the speakers out to 16" with a very slight toe-in and it is a world of difference. I don't have the tools to measure the actual performance of the speakers, and maybe I would find everything completely out of whack if I could, but it really sounds great!

I have no complaints at all about my Forte IIIs, either. I was just saying it seems many others think so.

Yeah...what about that? Man, we need some audio engineers who can speak plain English to chime in. I feel like I'm reasonably intelligent and I think I understand some of this stuff, but I have to admit that I've never had that AHA moment where it all clicks into place and I can say, "if I do X I will get Y result". But, maybe that kind of clarity is just beyond me. Heck, I still think it radio is absolute magic, let alone television across the airwaves. 🤫

I don't think you're missing anything. My question was never really about loudness, but about whether the extra watts add something to the overall sound other than that ability to play it louder.

You are correct...I should have said SPL increase rather than loudness.

I do hear what your saying and understand about headroom, peaks vs. continuous, and clipping. All good points. All correct within context. When I'm using the example of an 8 wpc amplifier, my context includes a Klipsch Forte III with 99 dB effeciency. That 99 dB is LOUD by pretty much any standard...loud enough to damage your ears with extended exposure. So, let's say there is a peak in the source material that needs to be twice as loud. That means the amp has to deliver a whopping 2 watts to the speaker. Twice as loud again, 4 watts. Twice as loud again, 8 watts. Now we have to worry about clipping, but we are at 111 dB. And, unless I'm mistaken, an amplifier that can deliver 100 watts will still only deliver 8 watts to achieve that 111 dB. Of course, if we were driving a speaker with 80 dB efficiency, it would be an entirely different context and way more power would be required. Still, how loud the speakers can get is not really the question. Do those additional unused watts (thanks @82 Cornwalls) contribute anything to the overall quality of the sound, or does the output capability strictly affect volume. I'm leaning to the idea that it is only SPL and other factors like current, topology, etc. are responsible for other aspects of the overall "sound".

What an amazing guitar player!

COOL! I want to hear your thoughts!

LMAO!!!

Thanks @geoff. and @Woofers and Tweeters for bringing up the maximum volume issue. I've been thinking about power needs at reasonable listening levels, but this does add another wrinkle, doesn't it? My Forte IIIs are rated at 99 dB/2.83V/1m (just looked this up so I'm correcting my earlier mistake), and have a MAXIMUM of 116 dB continuous. To achieve that maximum requires something a little shy of 64 watts. The specs also show maximum power ratings of 100/400 watts. I assume that means 100 continuous or 400 peak, so we're pretty much in that 2X range. Personally, I have no interest in pushing my speakers to 116 dB, but I suppose in a huge room with a listening position pretty removed from the speakers, that might be somewhat reasonable. I take my measurements from my listening position and consider anything above 90 dB to be really, really loud, but it isn't painful and it sounds quite good. That is still probably below 1 watt of amplifier output. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm enjoying this discussion. I appreciate the participation.

If I follow your argument correctly, does this suggest that a good, solid, high-end amplifier with high current producing 8 watts should sound the same as a good, solid, high-end amplifier with high current producing 28 or 280 watts into an efficient Klipsch speaker at the same SPL? It makes sense to me that it would but, again, just my assumption.

That is a good question. I would think it should be equal as a function of the speaker crossover network design, but that is just an assumption.

Lot's of interesting comments and information here, but it isn't answering the question that is bugging me. I'll ask a different way... It supposedly takes 1 watt of power from the amplifier to drive my Forte IIIs to an SPL of 98 dB at one meter on axis. A 8 wpc ACA has more than enough power to do that and a 28 wpc Fisher is not going to require more than that same 1 watt to achieve the same SPL. Someone please correct me if this is not true, but it seems to be a law of physics. If this is correct, the question is, what is(are) the benefit(s) of the additional output power of higher output amp? I'm not asking with the ulterior motive of suggesting no benefits exist. In fact, in my response to 82 Cornwalls above, I'm saying I can hear differences that I think of as beneficial...things I don't hear from the ACA at the same SPL. My desire is to understand why. Obviously, it is not all about SPL. Maybe the differences boil down to topology and the output power potential has nothing to do with it, but posts from others supporting the use of higher output amps suggests that is not the case. I'm still curious.

I think I've heard that tubes and Class D SS do a better job of handling impedance swings. I would like to know if that is correct and how that affects what we hear.

Good question. I loaned the Aiyima to my grandson a few months ago, so I haven't tried it for quite a while. And, I've been using the preamp section of the Marantz to feed the ACA, so that hasn't really been used as a full-on integrated for more than a year. My memory is, the sound of the Marantz and the Aiyima are not that far apart. The ACA provides more detail...just a very clear sound. I would describe the Marantz and Aiyima as more of a warm sound. I've only been listening to the Fisher for a few hours. My initial impression is that it sounds very much like the ACA with a touch more warmth and a slightly more expansive sound stage. The big difference is in the bass. I described it to my brother-in-law as more controlled and powerful. Not any deeper, but definitely more robust. I have my listening space in the basement and for the first time ever, I could feel the bass coming through the floor when I went upstairs. I'm sure the Aiyima would do that, too, but I've never played it in this house so I can't compare them head to head.