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Chief bonehead

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Posts posted by Chief bonehead

    K-402 in wood!

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    In my view, Doc is getting flack which is unnecessary and undeserved. He is responding like the gentleman, engineer, and scholar which he is.WMcD

    I appreciate your comment. But in all fairness when I am supposedly quoted I like to point out when the quote is wrong. That is all that is about. I spent many years playing with horns and I totally disagree with the premise that generalizations of equations and their use of for horns is wrong. I have seen very minor changes produce very different results. And I am going to ignore those experiences.

    • Like 1

    K-402 in wood!

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

     

    Boy doc you got a lot of things wrong
     

     

    I have no doubt that there is a lot of truth to that, but have you noticed that you stop at saying people are wrong when you disagree? No data or content to back it up - just an expectation to accept your cryptic comments on faith. Would you enjoy hearing that from someone you respected? Certainly you're the designer of a few awesome speakers so there is a lot of credibility there. However, there are several other designers of awesome speakers out there...and they don't all agree on the approach or even the science behind it. They can't all be right at the same time, so skepticism from the listeners should not only be expected, but encouraged.

     

    One of the things I liked about PWK in all the Dope From Hope literature is how the designers would actually engage each other in their disagreements - even when they were totally wrong. PWK missed the boat on so many things, but beat things to death cuz he had a different point to make - it's just the nature of discussing complex systems. That kind of discourse highlighted the many perspectives to the same problems. It also highlighted how different priorities resulted in the various design choices. What if perhaps doc might have some insights? Now that's a crazy thought. Honestly I try to avoid outlandish claims if I don't have some technical backing for it. Feel free to tear down the strawman - but I'm quite confident on what I'm apparently failing to communicate.

     

    whats interesting doc is that you have come to some of the gatherings and we have talked quite a bit.  its your memory of what you say i say and what i implied.  that is what i was saying that you got wrong.  but does it really matter doc?  prolly not......

    K-402 in wood!

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    You could just measure the area expansion rate....oh wait, that would actually be informative. I'd be willing to wager that it more closely approximates the conical area expansion than the tractrix area expansion. Maybe it's better called a "modified conical"...like every other straight-walled horn out there

    Or you could trust in the knowledge and abilities of the designer of the K402 horn to give it the most accurate description...!!!Maybe that is just expecting to much from some that should know better.... really sadmiketn
    Trust? Really? What insight is that offering?

    If we're going to trust Roy, then we're going to acknowledge that it's not a tractrix horn. There is a tractrix equation and the K402 does not follow it. The tractrix equation does not provide constant coverage.

    Roy has noted in the past that the tractrix equation does have constant coverage over a narrow bandwidth. His goal was to stretch that bandwidth with minimal impact to the acoustic coupling that tractrix provides.

    Now what if a different designer started with a conical horn equation? It starts with constant coverage over a wider bandwidth, but has acoustic coupling issues. A designer could just as easily 'modify' the conical equation to balance the compromises however you want - and you could end up with the exact same horn shape using either approach. Heck, you could do the same with any classic equation.....and that's exactly what some of the horn literature discusses. There is no shortage of discussion on trying to improve the problems of the conical horn.

    How you get to the shape is totally arbitrary, but the shape itself is what determines performance.

    Roy chose to call it modified tractrix. That's his prerogative, but it doesn't offer insight into what is happening. The mostly straight walls is the dominant factor in achieving the desired polar response. If I were to look for a cheaper alternative or build my own, then that would be one characteristic to help narrow the search. Most straight-wall horns are marketed as being conical...even when they don't follow the conical horn equation itself. The term simply has multiple meanings. It's obtuse to ignore that reality.

    I would also go a step further and note that the strict tractrix and conical equations refer specifically to circular cross-section horns only. Moving to a rectangular cross-section means it no longer follows the equation. Why isn't the parrot crowd just as picky about Klipsch calling all their old horns exponential? Aren't they also a different modified version? Maintaining the same area expansion approximates the same coupling, but it doesn't match the equation, especially when truncated....and then the polars are certainly different (intentionally). If you're going to insist on strict mathematical equations, then at least be consistent about it. That is the crux of my disdain for these semantic comments.

    I'm really struggling to understand what insight is trying to be conveyed. Why is conical such a bad term? Why is pointing out the straight walls such a bad thing? Why is pointing out that it is closer to conical than tractrix such a horrible crime that demands such annoying parroting? I really don't get it....and I have spent just as much time with Roy and heard all the same things.

    My take is that Roy's attention to detail here is calling out that the (old) wave equation solutions aren't really ideals to strive for. In other words, conical horns (by strict definition) don't sound good. Same goes for exponential and tractrix. Good horn designs take a more iterative approach based on desired performance. Roy brought tractrix to Klipsch with some help from John Post, and got PWK off the exponential equation. He's just been riding that wave ever since and probably uses the tractrix term to highlight that history and the benefits of the original tractrix equation. In other words, it's more tractrix in intent, and it's really a marketing term.

    I have always had the greatest respect for Roy, and greatly appreciate how he pushes the envelope. I think it shows respect to challenge ideas and inconsistency in application of ideas.

    All this unsolicited policing around the Jubilee just pushes people away and creates a very polarized culture around it. Just let the design stand on its own merit. The fact that you feel the need to police tells me you think the design and Klipsch is too weak to take care of itself....that seems way more distrustful and disrespectful to me. The irony is you don't even understand what it is you're defending. Sure, you know Roy calls it modified tractrix, but that doesn't give you any insight into how to compare against any other horns out there....short of measuring actual acoustic performance. Roy could call it the bubble equation, or blueberry expansion profile....the name doesn't mean anything to anyone without the actual mathematical definition.

     

    So why do I bring all this up? Because if you build a horn that looks similar to the K402, then you're going to get similar performance. Granted it doesn't take much for a horn's performance to change dramatically, but all the similarly performing designs I've seen all share common traits. Those other designs have been derived using methods other than Roy's modifying of a tractrix equation. The latest FEA approaches I've been reading about sound a lot more convincing than a magical equation - the performance can be predicted and iterated on at a much faster rate these days....and without building any early prototypes. I am hopeful that someday we'll start seeing those tools in the DIY realm, and then we can custom tailor things to our own space and make our own tradeoffs.

    Boy doc you got a lot of things wrong. Don't even know where to start......so I won't!! :)

    K-402 in wood!

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    You could just measure the area expansion rate....oh wait, that would actually be informative. I'd be willing to wager that it more closely approximates the conical area expansion than the tractrix area expansion. Maybe it's better called a "modified conical"...like every other straight-walled horn out there

     

    Or you could trust in the knowledge and abilities of the designer of the K402 horn to give it the most accurate description...!!!

     

    Maybe that is just expecting to much from some that should know better.... really sad

     

     

    miketn

    Naw. That would put an end to all this nonsense. We don't want to do that.

    K-402 in wood!

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    "You start at the mouth...it's much, much easier to pull than to push to get the correct curve."

     

    First, tractrix is not the best solution for everything.

     

    Second, Dinsdale starts at the throat.

     

    Third, I really don't care at this point.

    Fourth. It is. Even for fishing rods.
    • Like 1

    K-402 in wood!

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    All these semantics about what to call the horn.....it really doesn't offer any insight and is certainly not enjoyable to read over and over again.

     

    You could just measure the area expansion rate....oh wait, that would actually be informative. I'd be willing to wager that it more closely approximates the conical area expansion than the tractrix area expansion. Maybe it's better called a "modified conical"...like every other straight-walled horn out there :P

    I used to think you were smart.....

    Is the Klipsch 1132 & 1132A an EV built driver?

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    Both drivers are impressive to say the least. I was blown away by the midrange performance of the three way Jubilee. I couldn't believe there were people in the room that actually still preferred the two way version - what a bunch of suck-ups.

    You know you shouldn't put your self down like that. As I remember you liked the two way as well you suck up! Lol!

    The 402 with the 1133 gets quite the work out in cinemas. And most of our tech customers say that the mid is what impresses them the most when they listen to a klipsch system.

    Is the Klipsch 1132 & 1132A an EV built driver?

    in Technical/Restorations

    Posted

    Is there a longer version of the answer? Did Klipsch tool up and build the 1132 or were they rebranded or built on spec for Klipsch? I have not seen a set so I am not familiar with them a nominal 2" version and a 1.4" version, is that correct? that sounded so much like a DH1A was why I asked if you remover the nose extender cup on a DH1A you end up with a 1.4 " exit driver they both have 3" ti diaphragms, so some similarities would like to know more perhaps they were Hepner? Thanks. Best regards Moray James..

    The driver was designed from the ground up. The current versions of the 1132 and 1133 are the kt1132 and kt1133. These drivers represent the latest investments in cinema sound. The kt1133 is used extensively in the cinema models.

    • Like 1

    EARL: Hope Klipsch Employee Appreciation Days, Apirl 10, 11, 12

    in Forum Meetup Planning + Past Klipsch Pilgrimages

    Posted

    Yes, I was there both nights but I got there late both nights as well. The Harmons + Lonnie are a pretty nifty bunch of dudes. I truly enjoyed the company of (almost) everyone I met and may actually now have a bit of a Klipsch addiction...obsession...lets go with passion. Because when you're passionate about something you want to know everything you possibly can about it, right? I needs me a PWK biography. Guess the stories from the people around here will do for now. Talking to my students, I found out one of them's grandmother was allegedly his secretary. There's just so much history and "I've only just begun."

    Anyway, even though I'm an über n00b, when I figured out who Roy was I immediately told him I wanted to pick his brain. Course, I didn't really know what size pick to use.

    Kevin: Rodney has been telling that neighbor story all week! We definitely need a motto addendum for that one. Can't wait to show him the blog post mentioning it.

    BigStew: probably "Blue Bayou"

    a pick would not help. more like a rail road spike...... :)

    are you the chick that was singing karaoke?

    Yeppers that's me :-)

    I'm actually an English, speech, and drama teacher. That doesn't diminish the fact that I love music though. I use it in my lessons as often as possible. :-)

    Roger, Roger. The bio and the stories on The Joint seem like a great place to start. I may just have to do some personal research as well. I asked my students in each class when I got back Tuesday how many of them had a relative or knew someone who worked at Klipsch. Around 30% of each class I polled.

    I even geeked out on the chemistry/physics and agriculture teachers Tuesday. Told the chem/physics guy he should work out a field trip to the plant so his kids could see the practicality of physics (and the what? 3-5 other branches of science?) at work there. Sadly, sometimes we teachers don't have enough time to use all the resources that are right at our fingertips.

    This is certainly an excellent idea. I would love to see younger kids involved with Klipsch. This may the perfect opportunity to bring new life to the plant in your area!

    help me figure out how to incorporate Klipsch into an English unit and it will happen. I've been brainstorming general ways to get them engaged in different careers. Maybe I could schedule a certain guest speaker for the classroom? *cough* Chief Bonehead *cough*

    I'm actually an English, speech, and drama teacher

    You just moved up on the coolness meter. English is my favorite subject; but, don’t judge me based on my posts -- one doesn’t have to try hard around here. Now, please tell me that you teach your students to speak in a British accent.
    I am wary of every single post I make here with a resident writer like Mallette around. And one of my kids tried to use a British accent when he performed his monologue today...smh
    before you get whooping cough, all you have to do is ask. yesterday i had an acoustic class from henderson come to the lab and talk about speakers. so pick dates and i will see if i will be in town. that all you have to do chickie.
    Awesome and will do xoxo

    Hey hey. Watch the tongue!!

    • Like 2
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