Marathon Man

B12, Im thinking of replacing the RSW-12 with the Velo HGS-18, and using the velo in the front and the RSW-15 in the rear. I have been doing some research on a few subs to replace the 12, but have not yet made a decision. I was interested in the SVS subs simply because it seems to be a pretty well liked sub, but I just cannot bring myself to purchase the sub without hearing it. I only hope that I can find a dealer her in Atlant that carries the HGS-18 and has one on the floor. This was the same problem I ran into when I got the RSW-15.. no one had one as a demo, and I convinced my dealer to get one in and break it out for me to listen to or I would not have purchased it. However this guy does not sell Velo. On paper the Velo looks very flat, and has the power I want. Another thing is that I have never purchased any gear off the net. Im just to damn scared, because Im the type of person that if there is a problem with the piece I want to just take it back to where I got it and let them take care of it, and not have to wait for shipping etc.. you know the drill. Have you had any success making purchases off the net? ------------------ MM

Boa12, Well you are lucky on the cable broadcasts. I have Direct TV and I seem to get very few DD broadcasts, even Pay Perview movies. They might have 1 or two movies that are broadcast in LBX, and DD. That sucks because that is one of the main reasons I went to Sat in the first place. Oh well. Most of the movies I like I just purchase on DVD anyway. Hey question. Did you purchase your velo from a dealer or on the net? ------------------ MM

For sure on the dts 6.1 descrete. I was aware of the 6.1 matrix <source + 6>. I actually use two rear speakers as a rear center. Its a rather strange setup but I like it. I use two of the klipsch rs-3's. I say its kinda strange because of the defused sound from the dipoles. I use stadium seating of three rows in my theater and if you are sitting in the last row you will be rather close to the rear centers, and the defused sound allows you to be rather close to the speaker without it being to pronounced, otherwise you loose the effect. ------------------ MM

Boa12, Thats good news on the upgrades. I did not know they were going to do the dts-es. I have not heard much about a new dvd-audio format?? I purchased a dvd audio player a while back but returned it because of the bass management or lack of there of as well as just not enough software. I listen to dts music mostly for true 5.1 surround. RE: the low ferquency generate, I am pretty supprised that the volume is not a reference to something in the pre-amps output levels.. Oh well it works none the less as long as I can manage the ferquency I want between 120 and 20 Hz. By the way. I did get the B&K setup disk, but I have not got the cable yet. Im hopeing that it will allow me to save the setup on my laptop as a backup to the eeprom. ------------------ MM

Kevin, LOL on the brain cramp. Well made points, and yes a fair question which by the way does not anger or insult me. Maybe one of the Klipsch folks can speak to your questions. I think we would all like to hear what they have to say about how the sub was measured and the environment it was setup in when doing so. I could have and still can buy any sub on the market, but I choose the RSW. My point was the specs alone did not soley influence my decision when I made the purchase. My point about bashing the RSW is directed at those who have not even heard the sub, and are going on hear say as to how the sub performs. To be frank I think that most people simply try to correct room anomalies by throwing equipment at the problem and find themselves continuously chaseing bigger and louder gear to try and correct that problem. The RSW may not be the sub for you if you have a bass challenged room, where some other subs like the SVS that does not drop off very much below 30 Hz will give you the bass that you are looking for. In my room you can almost hear a heart beat, and with the B&K's notch filter feature I can tame those pronounced 60-80 Hz freqs that allow me to smooth the sub out and drive the sub to get the spl I want in the low low ranges. As I said this sub will not be for everyone, but for me it works very well regardless of the specs, and independent tests. I don't disagree with your points. I only disagree with people not thinking about giving the sub a listen soley based on hear say. Go and listen to the sub and judge for yourself. I would like for the Klipsch reps to respond to your points and answer your question as that may put to bed some miss-understanding about the product. Klipsch.... ------------------ MM

TV, You are dead on. this is why the standard unit of measuring sensitivity is 1 watt at 1 meter because it takes the room out of the equation for one, and standardizes the test. The one test that kevin spoke of the guy was in a large room with the mic 13 or 14 feet away from the sub. I think that is a more realistic test because who sits 3 feet away from their sub, but the only problem is that now you bring the room into the equation. I guess we can debate this all day. In my room I could not imagine having more bass than with the RSW. The RSW shakes your clothing along with everything else in my application. The S&V article is pretty good I thought. They measured the sub in a huge room for one 7,500 cubic feet. The sub still did well and I quote "One of the best measuring subwoofers we have seen" and "The RSW-15 had prodigious low frequency output" this aint too bad IMO. As for klipsch's rating the sub. They measured its output at 121 db @ 30 Hz @ 1 meter. maybe I have not read the article that Kevin is referencing that gives him the idea that Klipsch is 18 db off from their rating. Oh well. Trust me folks its a hell of a sub. ------------------ MM

Kevin, BTW, Boa12, and I were wondering about the low freq tone generater on the B&K that is used to setup the notch filter. There are like 3 different volume references, eg., -30, -45, and -55, Im not sure of the exact volumes. Anyway we were wondering are these volume levels relative to the flat setting on the main volume knob (mid way) or the flat setting on the sub level volume or exactlly what are these levels referenced from. Im thinking the flat position on the main volume. ------------------ MM

Kevin, I don't argue that point. I think that when you are looking at specs only that would be a very good argument not to look in the direction of the sub, but for me when I heard the sub I fell in love with it. I did some testing myself with the sub, not to the extent of the independent third parties you mention (which I have read by the way), and my tests also show that yes the sub falls off pretty sharp below 25 hz, but not 18 or 19 db! Now granted I have spent a lot of money on room improvements and I don't think you can get any closer to acoustic perfection (at least for the money I spent you better not be able to) than my room. Im sure that has something to do with it, but even in the store prior to my purchase I thought the sub just sounded good and clean, and had plenty of bass for my taste. personally I prefer clean accurate sound vs loud any day of the week and sometimes Sundays. The sub is expensive and I guess when you make a purchase if the stats and the reviews are what drives you to make a decision then I guess most won't purchase the RSW, but in all fairness I think it deserves a listen, and in my theather its the sub of choice , and coupled with the RSW-12 its a winning combo. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-15-2002 at 08:15 PM

One thing you can try is to measure the spl at -30, then change the sub volume in the setup under speaker levels, then measure the spl again at -30. If you see a differnce in spl then my theory is right. If not then they should be able to shed more light on the subject. ------------------ MM

boa12, Thats funny because I noticed the same thing, but Im at about 82 db with rc-7. Thats why I was wondering if it was exactlly 75 db or not. Sometimes I forget just how efficient these Klipsch speakers really are. Well thats one question answered, but for the low freq generater Im thinking it must be tied to the volume of the pre/pro in one way or another either the sub level itself or main volume. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-15-2002 at 06:47 PM

Boa12, Im thinking that it has to mean -xx from 0 or mid volume (main vol) with the sub volume in speaker levels set to 0. When you call them can you also find out the db for the generator on the speaker levels (main menu 5, sub menu 1, sub menu 3 (speaker levels)). It may also be that the low freq generator may be -xx from the sub volume in speaker levels. It has to be one of the two thats what Im thinking. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-15-2002 at 06:26 PM

Here we go again bashing the RSW-15. I guess I have to contiue to be the only one on this board who will come to its rescue. I really am sadden by the fact that given all the negative talk about the sub that the Klipsch reps don't step up and fight this battle with me. your making me look bad guys . Anyway back to what I was saying. Its ashame that the only good quality about a subwoofer (on this board anyway) is how loud the sub plays below 20 Hz at which the human ear cannot hear anyway. Sure you can feel the freqs that low but how much is enough. I OWN THE SUB, and I am hear to tell you that if the sub is setup correctlly it will give you pleny good solid bass below 20 Hz and will also put some pain in your ear drums since thats what it sounds like most of your goals are. The sub not only delivers good heart throbbing bass it sounds oh so good. Don't forget that your theater should sound good and not just be loud. Keep listening to frequencies below 20 Hz at 110 db and I promise you will be deaf in a matter of years, and all this expensive equipment and this wonderful hobby will be all for not. Sorry I keep drifting from my point. The point is that the RSW-15 is a great sub for most applications unless your theater is in a concert hall. The sub is great in a home theater application, but really shines musically. For all you audiophiles that are thinking about the RSW-15 don't be discouraged by the fact that the RSW does not do play as loud below 20 Hs as some other. Loud is not always the best. Go out and listen to the sub and make up your own mind. If there is one thing that I have learned in this hobby is that no two people hear alike and the best advise is the advise of your own ears. I hope you don't read this thread and come away with the wrong impression. To each his own when it comes to home audio but lets not give this product a bad rep just because it does not sound like a volcano is in your living room. The subwoofer should be setup exactly like Kevin suggests. Unfortunatly most folks new to this hobby, and even some who are not so new to this hobby don't understand frequency response as it realates to listening levels. Well put kevin. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-15-2002 at 06:01 PM

Boomer9911, They do look pretty nice. I see its a 10 gauge cable, wow thats pretty large. I also see that they have a 30 day in home trial which makes it easy to demo the product. I went with the chang-lightspeed for a few reasons. One which after doing a little research they seemed to be the best bang for the buck, and I get mine from this dealer in southern California and he told me that since I wanted 4 he was able to give me an even better deal. I use the CLS power zero which is the best cord chang makes, and for the money the PS audio would have to be a very pronouced difference in sound for me to switch. However I might give it a try since they have the 30 day trial period. How much did you pay for the PS Audio? ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-06-2002 at 09:27 PM

Well here is my two cents for what its worth. I too was told a long time ago to purchase some type of surge protection/line conditioner to improve the sound of my systems. I went with Monster Power and was happy until I learned that the surge protection stuff actually gets in the way of the ac current and degradates it. The best source of ac power is straight from the wall. The filtering in products such as the Monster Power HTS-5100 which I own and its sitting in my rack being used to run front end equipment such as cd-r player, my TV, vcr, and sat receiver these components should be ok running off of one circuit. Back end equipement or equipment that need clean high power, equipment such as power-amps, pre-amps, sub amps, etc.. need to go with a dedicated power source. I have just run 4 dedicated circuits to my room, and I use chang-lightspeed power cords. This made all the difference in the world in the performance of my system. The filtering the chang-Lightspeed cords is very good. You can get them for about $300.00 a pop. If you plan to take this advise upgrade add the dedicated circuts first. This is one of those mods that one won't do without the other. Besides power thrirsty gear like power amps, and sub amps need all the power they can get, however they also need clean power in order to sound good and that is where the changs or whatever brand you like come in. Remember garbage in garbage out.. thats my new motto. I think it applys to much in life. As for the surge protection, getting a direct lightening strike will be about the same odds as winning the lottery, and if you do get a direct strike you can kiss your gear goodbye regardless of what you have protecting it. If you live in an apartment then obviously this won't be something you can do (running dedicated circuits), but I could not beleive the difference it made for my system. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-08-2002 at 12:03 PM

Good job JR. I told you that amp sounds very very smooth. As boa12 said if you think the 7250 made a huge difference add the ref 30 pre-amp and you may not leave home for a few weeks because you will have to play all your media again. It will be like hearing them for the first time. Have fun with the new amp. ------------------ MM

And the hits just keep on comming. LOL.. I will say this my man, you have a lot of heart. P.S. I like the fan tho. ------------------ MM

Jolly Roger, I use 4 channels of the 7260. Three mono blocks driving the mains and the center, the 7260 drives the two rears and two sides. I go full range in the rear RF-5's, and I love the B&K. As a matter of fact I think it sounds just as smooth and clean as the mono blocks (well almost . Very tube like. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-06-2002 at 12:54 PM

LOL!!!! This is too funny! Its a good thing the sub was not hitting very hard. I can just see that cat bouncing off the walls inside that sub... LOL! funny stuff ------------------ MM

The 7250 is a beefy amp but its a clean amp and you should be fine. Power does not nessessarily blow speakers unlike signal clipping. Just don't over drive the speakers. I use a 7260 to drive two RCW-3's (in-walls) and have not had a problem what so ever. bi-amping the Denon with the 7250 will give you better head room, and a much cleaner sound, but you should eventually move to a real pre-amp. With a power amp use good clean ac power i.e. a power cord with in-line filering or something like monster power. Remember garbage in garbage out... ------------------ MM

Go with the lexicon. Its about 2200 bucks more than the Krell, but it will have all the features you want, and its rs-232 port allows for software upgrades for future formats. It sounds very clean and looks good to boot. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 03-27-2002 at 09:19 PM

Boomer9911, Amen on the Chang-Lightspeed. Which cord do you have, power zero, or power one? Since I have an extra CLS I might try it on the RSW-15 to see if it makes a difference. I guess I never did because I did not think it would be that great of a difference as it would be on a pre-amp or power amp where it makes a HUGE difference. I tell you what, adding 3 dedicated circuts, the CLS power cords to my pre and power amps, along with using the wall as my powre source for the back end equipment and the pre-amp instead of using that monster power, surge, protection, line conditioner crap you can really hear a very noticable difference. ------------------ MM

jhawk92, Are you speaking of the Lucasfilms WOW! disc? If so where did you get it from, and can you get me one? I did order this one because its free, but I would really like to get my hands on the WOW disc. BTW thanks toddvj for the tip on the kenwood demo. ------------------ MM

You can leave the sub turned on at all times it will not hurt anything. As a matter of fact I have two mono blocks that I never turn off because turning the amps on and off will cause more damage to the amp than leaving it on ever will. If you just feel better turning it off, try connecting it to a switched outlet on your surge protection and leave the sub in the on postion. When the surge protection is turned on the sub will be turned on also. One other thing to check re: the auto on feature. Check that the low pass is not set to low. This will cause the sub not to play until it receives a signal below or at the low pass setting. ------------------ MM

William you are dead on. The movie is just that good that it is distressing. I could not think of a word earlier but that is it. My wife and I both really enjoyed the movie but she does not think she could see it again because it was just so intense. Excellent movie.. ------------------ MM

LOL!! This gets better every day. ------------------ MM