Droogne
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Posts posted by Droogne
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Got it! GOT IT! GOOOOOT IT! @Chris A @DizRotus
We can offer KPT-402 horn with two different driver.
KPT-402-MF mid-bass Tractrix® horn coupled to the Klipsch-1133 2” exit titanium driver from KPT-Jubilee535 speaker or
KPT-402-HF Tractrix® horn with K-1132 2” exit titanium compression from KPT-942 speaker."
Would you happen to know how good the K1132 is? Better thank the K69? Or if those drivers could be sold? (in that case I could buy the K1132 or 33, sell it, and buy the faital HF200 or 20AT)
In any case, now I know where to buy and how much it costs. Financially I can make it if I'm able to sell my LaScala center and pair of Choruses II. This will probably take a while, but I'm hoping I can order it so I have it by end of January/begin february. Exciting times ahead!
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1 hour ago, twistedcrankcammer said:
Didn't realize you were so far away, figured you were state side and maybe somebody could have helped you out
Rog
Hahah youre not the first! I always think my English would be sufficient info (grammar in particular) to know I'm not from the states. But yeah it sucks.. Klipsch prices are through the roof over here (I also profited from this, but hard to find second hand items for the prices I see passing by in US Klipsch facebook groups etc), and it's incredibly hard to find Pro Gear (I'm on a quest to find K-402 horns, but I think it's almost at and end, HOOZAAH!). Prices to ship gear from Crites or the likes are also crazy (shipping is "cheap" for drivers etc, around 70 dollars for a pair, but 21% import is the real pain in the butt)
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2 hours ago, twistedcrankcammer said:
Droogue;
Hahaha nice take on my name
(It's funny cause no one is able to spell it when they hear it)
2 hours ago, twistedcrankcammer said:1st, Where is your event going to take place?
Belgium
2 hours ago, twistedcrankcammer said:2nd, Remember that 121 max spl is only a single La Scala. That is 124 max spl for a pair, and 127 max spl for four La Scalas, so six should fill your requirements with a max output of 128.5 dB.
Well, it's not about what system would fit my requirements, but rather if my personal system can manage it
Have been looking into some other option which are DIY friendly and which uses some of my drivers/bass bins (to make it financialy possible for our organisation). A K600 would be amazing ofcourse. And LaScala is rated a 121 for one, but when I calculate it should reach 126 @100 watt .. But it doesnt really matter. I calculated it for the drivers seperately (based on advice from a local sound expert), taking into account the sensitivity from our ears for certain frequencies. This gave me decent coverage over 40 meter (also taking into account the possible hearing damage due to too high SPL).
2 hours ago, twistedcrankcammer said:3rd, I'm with Billybob here, why not just break out the KP-600s and "Piss off the neighbors"? A single KP-600 stack has a max spl of 137.5 dB, So that is 140.5 dB output for a pair which is good enough to rock a group of 5,000 people
Roger
Haaving such a pair would be amaaaaaazing! They sure costs like it haha! No way I can afford (or find) them
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Just now, canyonman said:
I am using a 20-30 year old Yamaha Pro audio amp I got from ebay, it's 25wpc and I have it turn up half way. I would think that as long as it is working and in spec it should be fine.
Great, I have a marantz AV receiver with plenty of power and which has analog inputs to supply all the woofers I need then
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On 25-11-2017 at 5:29 PM, Chris A said:
I stumbled across a captured phantom view drawing from some time ago of how to fix a bifurcated bass bin horn mouth (i.e., dual source diffraction) this AM. Some guy in New York City area ("Levan Horn") did this to an existing design:
That is one biiiiig horn! Thats an EV cab right? Found some designs which use only half of the bin (height wise) which could make a pretty good center.
PS, just want to share the happy news I'm might have found a way to order the K-402 in my area! Took a while, and some extensive emailing, but it's looking good!
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5 hours ago, canyonman said:
Yes exactly!!!
Aweesome! Would it really matter what kind of quality the SS is? Would a subwoofer (iNuke or the likes) amp be a good fit for example? Or wouldnt it really matter? I could be dead wrong, but isnt power the most important for the woofers?
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16 hours ago, canyonman said:
I have a custom pair of xovers for khorns if you are interested.
Also I am using a SS amp to drive my woofers in a tri amped setup... The sound is pretty incredible with flea powered tube amps and SS on the bottom, of course I am also using a Xilica 4080 to run everything!!!
So Xilica with SS on the woofers and tubes on the mid and highs?
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On 24-11-2017 at 8:21 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:
A great compromise would be to build a Quarter Pie horn with an Eminence 4 ohm woofer for $99 per bin.
Are there good 12" Quarter Pie horns (or similar designs) for center speakers? Or does this design require a corner / only work in a LR setup?
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3 minutes ago, Chris A said:
"Separation" is centerline to centerline of the horns/drivers.
if youre crossing at 500hz, how do you even place it close enough to the centerline of your bassbin? That's at least 2 times that distance in a stock LaScala? (I'm guessing I'm still misunderstanding).
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15 minutes ago, billybob said:
Fore sure!
Somehow think your June weather even with rain more tolerable than here, lol...
Ive been in Vietnam for a month, and oh god! Such moist air ö I'm guessing it's the same/worse where you live.
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10 minutes ago, Chris A said:
Yes--in terms of suppressing lobing at higher frequencies.
Would a LaScala stack ameliorate this even further?
10 minutes ago, Chris A said:You need less than 1/4 wavelength separation distance to avoid lobing. This is the same principle used the multiple entry horns that Danley provides.
Oh my mistake, so it's okay if I place the horns 15cm higher. Separation is between the mouth height or the borders of the horn?
Again thank you! I dont think I got any questions left for now
no I just gotta wait on some good K-402 news!
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2 minutes ago, Chris A said:
I can answer the question above on bass bins here briefly. (If the discussion continues on this sub-subject, I recommend another thread be started on that.) The problem is lobing due to the dual separated horn mouths that are not rejoined smoothly (like the La Scala is rejoined). See figure below:
Does this mean the LaScala is better in pattern control?
2 minutes ago, Chris A said:I'd pick the midrange centerline instead. If the tweeter is separated by more than an inch or so, you'll get lobing, like in the figure shown above, which is a function of separation distance and the wavelengths at the crossover frequency interference band.
So when the MF and HF are coupled I could get away with a separation of 30cm/1foot from the bass bin (that's 50% of the 500hz crossover point to the bassbin)?
2 minutes ago, Chris A said:First, you would need to select height loudspeakers having the same frequency response range as your other loudspeakers, then you'd EQ their frequency response flat like your other loudspeakers using a DSP crossover or similar device upstream that does parametric equalization. I found this out using a tri-amped, time aligned, dialed-in Belle center between the Jubs--it's timbre isn't the same due to the fact that it's frequency response lacks the bottom octave or so of the Jub bass bins. Once the K-402-MEH hit the scene, I had essentially perfect timbre matching. The surrounds also need to be timbre matched. If you use narrow coverage front loudspeakers (i.e., L, C, R) and wide coverage bipole or dipole surrounds, you will never timbre match them all in room.
So using height channels with horns with a similar dispersion pattern, same drivers and appropriate EQ should get me pretty close right? And I would cross all speakers at a point which I think I can reach with all 11 speakers. Ofcourse it's not perfect, but mounting full blown LaScalas (or K402 MEHs is both expensive and ridiculously difficult)
2 minutes ago, Chris A said:One reason why I've not been interested in Atmos is because the timbre match between elevation and ground-plane loudspeakers in the array that manufacturers are selling can't do this. It's apparently a problem with the Dolby specification for home theaters and their "certification"--if there is such a thing, such as what THX provides in terms of QA of loudspeaker designs/implementation. Like 3D movies, it looks to me like the Atmos thing is basically going to go by the wayside over time. It's a sound effect thing thus far--not music like 5.1 music recordings (multichannel SACD and DVD-A, 5.1 downloads) have been doing for 10-15 years now. YMMV.
Chris
Well I'd be using a setup which is pretty versatile, and not so specifically or exclusively for Atmos alone. Because I would be using regular height channels (not modules) I think I can evolve with future advances in the field. I am aware of the superiority of the 5.1 (in the sense that it makes the most sense and has the most native sources) so I'll be giving the 5.1 the priority for now. Using the heresies as front height channels for now, which is pretty good match with the LaScalas.
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1 minute ago, jazzmessengers said:
It's fine, I'll start the thread if not tonight then this weekend. It's a different enough topic to warrant it. I see @Chris A has already touched on the Jub bass bin sitting a bit too high and I thought the same thing when I heard the full Jub/K-402 system.
It might also take my focus away from this forum
spending way too much time here haha! At this tempo I'll still be distracted when my exams start in january, cant have that
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8 minutes ago, jazzmessengers said:
Why would a design like this allow the bass bin to have wide coverage at say 450 Hz (using your steep crossover to K-402) and have the deep bass extension of the Jubilee bin? Maybe this is a discussion for another thread, hope the OP doesn't mind!
Actually I might start a thread on this in the technical discussion forum this evening.
I dont mind derailing this thread, but I dont mind a more appropriate seperate thread either ofcourse. Makes it clearer for everyone!
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10 minutes ago, Chris A said:
I've found that timbre match more or less equals matching frequency response curves on axis. I can only demonstrate this in person. Some want to believe that this isn't true, and that it has something to do with the material of the diaphragms. I can assure you that it's correlated to on-axis frequency response.
The apparent source width/height is a function of the horn-driver coverage angles. I mentioned above, if those off-axis polars have uneven frequency response with respect to the on-axis response, then you have a timbre mismatch (that you're stuck with unless you use a lot of absorption to eat those off-axis polars in room). However, the aural effects of uneven polars on timbre is usually minimal if the horn/driver combination are pretty good in terms of smooth polars off-axis.
Ok, so gonna try to rephrase this to see if I get it. With uneven you mean there is a relevant difference between the on and off axis frequency response. With smooth off-axis polar you just mean a good frequency response, not compared to the on-axis response?
10 minutes ago, Chris A said:This is apparently the case for Klipsch Heritage midranges and tweeters, as I found first-hand using a stock Belle center (tri-amped, time aligned with flattened frequency response) between the Jubs. Using progressively better horns and tweeters on the Belle bass bin decreased the timbre and apparent source width differences, until I arrived at the K-402-MEH, where the center was at least as good as the Jubs in timbre and in apparent source width. The clarity and speech recognition of the K-402-MEH is startling. (I believe that a lot of people don't like center channel loudspeakers (the 5.1 ITU-R BS.775–2 arrangement, shown schematically below) because they never have used center loudspeakers that are good enough for the role that they're placed in. It easily needs to be the best loudspeaker that you own in order to integrate properly, I've found subjectively via experiment.)
My center is easily my best speaker (and fore sure the most expensive at the moment) I have not neglected it
10 minutes ago, Chris A said:I've found subjectively via experiment that in my room, having all channels approximately at the same height has strong advantages sonically.
The placement around the listening position needs to be at least ear height while sitting at the main listening position (LP), so I'm assuming that this is at least a metre off the floor (ITU recommends 1.2 metre, above).
Normally this applies to tweeter height right? I was thinking about how I was gonna this with my LaScalas, I can easily raise the bins too but would it make a difference if I only place the MF/HF higher (by like 20-30cm?).
10 minutes ago, Chris A said:The surrounds can be slightly higher (about half a metre) based on distance to the LP, as shown. But for full-surround channel recordings (like this one, for instance), having the surrounds at the same height all around is a definite advantage.
Chris
Also, how would you try to timbre match your height channels in your setup (if you were to do that hypothetically)
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1 hour ago, Chris A said:
Well, the K-402-MEH prototype needs no bass bin. It's full range as-is. But that's described in the linked MEH thread, above. I'm assuming that you're interested in the K-402 vs. other like-sized horns, and perhaps mating that with something like a Jub bass bin or perhaps something like a La Scala style bin.
I'm having 6 LS bins build, so that would be its "mate". Not against building a jub bin in the future though. And yes I'm reading through the MEH thread today. Interesting stuff!
1 hour ago, Chris A said:I could use 5 K-402-MEHs in my setup, instead of the one that I have for a center channel. Getting all the centerlines of the surround channels at about the same height above the floor is a big deal in terms of sound performance. That's what I'm intending to build--four more.
That's an interesting take! The height is one of the reasons why I would mate it with a LaScala. Would you place the fronts and rears on the same height as the center? Isn't that too low?
1 hour ago, Chris A said:A Jub bass bin (KPT-KHJ-LF) can be used with the above mentioned K-402-MEH but crossed an octave lower (~200 Hz) than the K-402 in order to avoid the lower midrange crossover point polar mismatch and still get the improved midbass performance of the MEH. Much smaller woofers can be used on the MEH instead if using a separate horn-loaded bass bin.
Would this also work with a LaScala (not sure how high the LaScala holds pattern)? Even more interesting design!
1 hour ago, Chris A said:To redesign the Jub bass bin to do what I referred to above to avoid polar mismatch at the top of its range with the K-402 is perhaps straightforward, but it consumes time and resources to do a proper job and I haven't found the need to explore that path to date.
I'm definitely gonna remember that once I get my hands on my K-402s.
1 hour ago, Chris A said:The idea of adding a nose extension to the Jub bass bin has been knocked around for a few years by some Jubilee owners--and discussed in passing by Roy, but until someone gets serious and does a prototype or two, I'm not sure it's going to occur anytime soon. It takes up more floor space than the current bass bin. I find the Jubilees' K-402s are a little too high off the floor sitting on top of the bass bins--for my room. I'd like them lower, and the full-range MEH design makes that easy to achieve.
Again.. height is indeed one the things I did not really like about the Jubilee. The difference with the center would be huge. (when using a tv).
1 hour ago, Chris A said:I haven't heard this horn with attached drivers and bass bin (direct radiator woofers are typically shown underneath the PSE-144 MEH). I also haven't seen a good set of polar plots down to below the crossover frequency for this horn/driver assembly. The only set of polar plots that I've seen to were less than spectacular when compared with the K-402 and a good compression driver, but that's not the final word on the PSE-144 until extended FR plots are produced.
The cost of the PSE-144 is way out of line as you've indicated--about 2x to 3x too high. And when you think about it, why user four drivers on an MEH to do what the K-402 and a good 2" compression driver can already do better? It doesn't make sense when compared. If you want to have a 3-way, I'd instead recommend the BMS 4592ND bi-amped on a K-402 instead of the PH-144 by a large margin, including cost and sonic performance.
YMMV.
Chris
Yeah I saw it mentioned in some thread about the K-402, but nothing really justified the cost and amount of drivers. Looks rad though. And about the 3-way, main reason why I was inquiring into the 3-way MEH was because of the fact that the rest of my 11 surround will consist of K77/K55 drivers, and I wanted a close timbre match. But that's quite a moot point, as I'll probably modify them all in the end to be 2-ways with the same (line of) drivers as what I'll be using in the K-402 LCR. But first the K-402. Then I'll start inquiring into K-402 drivers (the faital HF200 is recommended and is very reasonably priced, which makes it possible to put them in all 11 speakers). Then I'll worry about the horns (as the ones I'd be using in the height channels will be very size restricted) to timbre match (as close as possible) the K-402. They would all be actively crossed (the LCR with a Xilica normally, and the heights with something cheaper like a miniDSP HD), and I've read some nice things about timbre matching and EQ in one of your replies about this subject. Maybe I'll try out the MEH horn with the Bassbin along the way, who knows.
All in good time. First those damn K-402 horns
I would be able to get them pretty soon if I find a European dealer, if I need to buy from the US I'll probably have to save some more first. I'll keep you posted, as I'll probably have a boatload of question when I get them.
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19 hours ago, jazzmessengers said:
In my opinion after doing a lot of searching there isn't anything commercially manufactured that is the equivalent or has similar performance to the K-402.
For arguments sake, would this horn (if the information is correct) be a "match" for the K-402? I already looked up the price, and it's way too much (4500 dollars) so I wont be buying them.(the shipping prices (960dollars from Australia to Belgium, which is more than 2 times the distance from Kentucky, and that for a 33pound horn each) made me realise that the K-402 shipping prices cant be that bad, which is a good thing. yeay!). I got some interesting information though:
"Hi Maarten,
The horn has a 60 x 80 degree pattern and the great thing about this design is that it not only extends low, but even the vertical is very well behaved, with no sharp changes and nothing in the directivity that gives away crossover points. The vertical maintains 60 degrees down to 600 Hz, below which it begins to widen, increasing to 100 degrees below 300 Hz. The crossover is 350 Hz and below this point the beamwidth widens as any direct radiator will have a wider pattern. Horizontally the 80 degree beamwidth is maintained well below the crossover point, holding up even at 200 Hz."× Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead
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11 hours ago, Chris A said:
The polars on the Jub bass bin (KPT-KHJ-LF) in the horizontal direction get pretty narrow up around 400 Hz (anything above about 210 Hz)--much narrower than the K-402's ~110 degree coverage angle in that frequency band. That's what I was referring to. It's the main thing that the K-402-MEH prototype showed me in terms of listening differences between it and the Jubs, as well as coherent point source in that same frequency band. The listening difference: clarity/speech recognition, and general midbass presence. It's clearly different, in fact.
Chris
So essentially you made a great design, better? Love ittttt. Is that the reason youre gonna be making more of them? At the price theyre selling the K-402 in the US they "only" 1,75 times my LaScalas.
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6 hours ago, billybob said:
Everything you say sounds like practical steps. Cabling sounds like you will have down.
Incident referred too was an event where lead singer got shocked so, yes weather and
safety always a concern. Just wanted it to not be unsaid, in the course of things. Sure
your crew knows more than ever will about such matters.
At least it will not be snowing then. Thanks!
No snow in June would be quite a crisis
but oh damn, that sucks! Safety is something we will be focusing on improving his year. And I agree, it not something that should be left unsaid, even it seems the most logical off all.
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Just now, ClaudeJ1 said:
It appears you talking about the Jubilee or other "bass bin" when I was assuming you were discussing Danley Synergy horns (which I own) and Chris MEH versions which use the K-402. I was referring to the latter 2, not the Jubilee.
Oh no problem, I wasn't very clear I admit
PS those danley speakers look dang awesome! Perfect size with awesome performance (so I read). Perfect center seize too. Bit pricey for me at this point (but oh well, the K-402 is that too)
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7 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
An oxymoron at best considering the wavelengths of bass.
:s , I have been trying to not trip and fall (aka making stupid remarks) but I'm talking about things I know literally nothing about
let me rephrase! What does Chris mean with:
"If the bass bin polars match the horn/compression driver polars in each axis (horizontally, vertically), then the loudspeaker will sound very good. If there is a mismatch in polars at the crossover frequency then it will sound not as good in-room."
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4 minutes ago, Chris A said:
That horn has a slot in it that discourages its use above 4 kHz (i.e., a 2" slot spacing). I'd recommend something like this horn instead if the K-402 isn't in your solution space:
Chris
It might be good to try out a synergy horn first DIY with something cheap like this
Shipping is 2,5 times the actual price though .. Would something from P-Audio (those are very cheap over here)(http://www.paudiothailand.com/pac/index.cfm/products/high-frequency-horns/) or from Autotech be suitable for this little try-out project?
PS, back to the subject. Just out of curiosity (I'm becoming more and more convinced that I wont be spending anything more than like 200-300 on horns/pair as a temporary replacement for the K-402). Can you explain the pattern control of the bass bins some more? How do you have to look at their pattern control? Does it have to go down to their lower crossover, or upper? And how do you match it with the HF/MF horn? Pattern control down to their crossover is enough right?
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16 minutes ago, Chris A said:
Here's one of the prototype using a modified K-402 horn with MDF woofer mounting pads, a K-69-A compression driver (that I had on the shelf), and two Crites 15" cast frame woofers:
The calculations are really easy: 1/4 wavelength axial distance from the on-axis throat entrance to the off-axis ports at their crossover frequency.
Hmm might be easier to try out a synergy with the 2-way HF200 I was gonna try out. That way I could do something like your build. Would it work with PH2380 horn, or is this one to small to support low frequencies?
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19 minutes ago, Chris A said:
There's only only legend on this web site...and his initials are PWK.
But yes, the K-402-MEH is the fruit of one of my nightmares... I like it a lot.
PS you shouldnt be so humble
PWK might be thé legend, doesnt take way any bit of the awesomeness of your build!
(It's funny cause no one is able to spell it when they hear it)
I like it a lot.
How to dissect polar patterns and frequency responses for horns.
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
I've asked about the K69A (is this one cheaper or more expensive?), if I can buy it without driver, or if theyd want to buy the drivers (small chance, but who knows). I've also posted a "for sale" on local second hand sites to see if there is interest in the drivers. Before I buy the K-402 I also need to find me my Xilica of course. I'll also have the REW + UMIK1, so with some guidance I think I can pull it off with the K1132. If I find a 20AT Id definitely buy that one, but Faital says they have been discontinued..