glens
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Posts posted by glens
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Got a soldering iron and solder? Strip the end of the wires clean, wind them up, tin them, and form hooks.
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Haha! He'll not get a chance to listen to his system for a week if he takes to reading that!
I'd suggest crossing the tweeters at your feet (just in front of your head) rather than behind your head.
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Don't know, but suspect the difference is largely do do with updated mid and high horns/drivers (/crossovers?).
You've got a link to one spec sheet already, the other will be at the current product page.
I wouldn't sweat the difference if $500 is all they want...
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The upper-frequency drivers are on a panel which can be rotated at will.
Isn't the "II" equipped with the same high-frequency horns (but not mid driver?) as the Forte III?
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Thanks for trying that one and reporting. Too many grounds can create problems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)) and that was one thing I was curious about in your case.
As has been alluded to already, the presence of nearby sources of electromagnetic radiation could be a cause of the problem. Not being familiar with the "Juicy Music" product you have, I just now looked it up. One returned link was http://robertmusic.blogspot.com/2008/12/juicy-music-tercel-or-why-upgrades-are.html which I didn't read throughout, but did notice something early on about "hum". I hope you find satisfaction without too much trouble, but I've pretty much offered all I can at this point.
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Well, if he's (O.P.) really only here to troll, I'd say he has demonstrated exemplary skill. He'll need a winch to lift his stringer.
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21 minutes ago, Deang said:
To say that people can’t hear a difference is the same thing as saying that they sound the same. Isn’t that the point of the Richard Clark “Challenge”?
Sell your McIntosh integrated to someone who will actually appreciate it. You’ve already stated multiple times that you can’t tell any difference between it and your Onkyo AVR - which I’m sure has all of the features you require.
Objectivists search out and use nice gear just like the subjectivists do. What a bunch of hypocrites.
Dean, I got no beef with you and am not looking for one. But, come on, man. He's clearly stated many times he uses the McIntosh not for it's perceived superior sonic quality, rather for it's look, feel, and control qualities.
My take on the "sound alike" bit in no way extends to include each and every aspect of expected day-to-day usage equality. I, for one, would not leave a stereo component hooked up which has poor volume control tracking between the channels. It would never get as far as "how does it sound otherwise?"
Back in the later '70s when looking for my first sound system purchases, I saw first-hand how the HK 40 Watt/channel integrated handled itself in a far superior manner "balls out" to the 60 Watt/channel Technics (or equivalent Sansuage, Pioneer, etc.) and my choice was clear. Whether they actually sounded the same at 1 Watt/channel, closely power-matched &c. wasn't under consideration in the least to me.
It didn't take very long to see that while differences in sound system capabilities are definitely clear, the costs involved in climbing the ladder quickly bring less and less return with each rung. And if a person isn't careful, they'll find themselves, if they're honest, not appreciating that piece of music really 10,000 times as much as if it were playing on a table radio with a 1/4 Watt amp running a 4" "full-range" driver in a plastic, rattling "enclosure."
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7 minutes ago, Tizman said:
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ODS123 has said that all “modern linear” amplifiers sound the same. Repeatedly.
That may well be, but here he'd said "pretty much all" (modern, linear) sound "pretty much alike." In my book that's much different than flat-out "all sound the same." Perhaps I'm being too clinical regarding words and their usage?
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4 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:
Thanks Mom. Want us to go make our beds now?
If you haven't already done so...
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On 12/18/2018 at 10:31 AM, ODS123 said:
A few weeks ago I urged beginners to heavily skew their spending toward speakers by suggesting that audible differences b/w modern amplifiers that are engineered to be linear (which is pretty much ALL solid-state and any good tube amps these days) will sound pretty much alike.
Let's be fair, folks. It's okay to disagree with what he'd said. State your disagreement in plain terms and leave it at that. The record will remain so long as the forum maintains its history.
Please don't, however, misstate his claims and then battle endlessly over things he didn't say, namely shortening his declaration to merely "ALL AMPS SOUND THE SAME."
I'd think at least some of you combatants would raise holy hell if that'd happened to you. Unless, of course, it's your intent all along to engage in a straw man argument.
I'm relatively new in these parts (but not new to online discussions) and while thumbing through some of the history had not looked at the recent similar thread until today. I got a kick out of Chris mentioning "pigeon chess" (had to look up that term) there. Spot on.
All forums inevitably have similar groupings of participants. It doesn't take long, especially with the help of threads like the present, to determine who's who.
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I believe the amplifiers he mentioned are class D. I have their littler sibling (338).
Floor-standing speakers couple the bass better and by the time you put a stand under bookshelf models you've taken up about the same amount of space anyway.
I've gotten a pair of Forte III and that would be my recommendation in this case, even though it was not mentioned as a consideration.
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Have you tried lifting the ground between the turntable and its preamp?
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I don't want to take your test because it will just be a waste of your time and mine, what with my years of experience polishing my golden ears.
Well, okay, I'll do it if for no other reason than to finally shut you up.
WTF?? That test was flawed and fraught with problems! There's no way in hell I shouldn't be able to pick which one is "X", every time, any day of the week, and twice on Sunday!
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I'm not in any way suggesting that different components can't or won't match up in better ways, mind you. And I'm not suggesting all electronics sound the same under every circumstance (and didn't get the impression the OP was saying that).
Dean, fingernails on the chalkboard, while unpleasant, never bothered me nearly as much as a hard spot in a crayon skipping across the paper in a coloring book.
EDIT:
I've always welcomed tests. I may succumb to situational anxieties in other matters, but never testing. I'd like to think I could "beat the box", as it were, in an A/B/X audio test, and likely ***** if I couldn't. As much or better than the next guy.
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Though it was fun to hook up the dashboard center speaker that way back in the day. Center + to right + worked best for the driver. Other way 'round for passenger. Made for great ambiance with the right source, too.
If you've got two speakers you can put side by side in the middle, alternatively (maybe better) in the corners behind you, wire them in series "-" together like that. There's going to be usually no bass in the output anyway.
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The biggest take-away of this thread has got to be the observation of folks' tendency to denigrate others for certain behavior, engaging in it themselves to do so.
Many valid points have been raised from both sides, but there is a large lack of congruity (as a matter of fact). Not being entirely fair to everyone involved, the best way I can think of to describe this present argument is "straw man".
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Well, I've finally waded all through this steaming pile. I'd liked to have made pointed comments at several places along the way but have pretty much forgotten now what they were. Except perhaps that if anyone thinks plywood does not dimensionally and/or structurally change with moisture content, then they most certainly are not yet experienced enough. And that Forte III which was only dropped once; what, from shoulder height down a flight of stairs?
I don't understand the level of animosity directed throughout toward the O.P. Nothing he'd said stands out in my memory as being very much out of line. IMO kudos are in order for the way he's handled himself in the face of so much antagonism.
I hadn't been involved in hi-fi very long before realizing that what sounds good always changes somewhat from day to day. Atmospheric conditions, head congestion (at minute, almost imperceptible levels), &c. all come into play. But whenever I come across stuff like "rearranging the speaker cable necessitated hours (up to days) for them to achieve a restored sonic neutrality", I'm invariably glad I'm not gulping some beverage at the very moment.
Sure, it can take time to discover liked, or disliked, characteristics of some kit that weren't apparent at the outset. But on any given day an audio A/B/X test is 100% valid in and of itself, and anyone who declares they're "fraught with problems" or some such doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. Either you can blindly identify which of the two is which or you can't. It's as simple as that.
Pertaining to the initial subject matter of this thread, as I recall things at any rate, I'd be more inclined to agree than disagree with what'd been said. Wasn't it something along the lines of "at the beginning of your journey you'd do well to look at things this way"? I'd not gotten the impression that following the offered advice would ensure anyone'd be immediately transported to their final destination. Yet somehow that's the notion I perceived was vehemently being argued against as the thread progresses. It's in that light particularly that I say I don't understand the antagonism. There must surely be something else going on that's not self-evident.
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First time I'd ever heard anybody else pronounce "anechoic". It's always sounded different when I've "said" it to myself while reading.
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Yeah, in that case it'd certainly be most expedient to use the AVP for final speaker-to-speaker alignment.
Whenever I'm with the missus in a place displaying a multitude of televisions and I point out the stragglers as either doing more signal processing or having a slower CPU, she says "only you would notice something like that." I just chuckle...
I'd started this post yesterday; just got back from enduring fair P.A. equipment being very poorly used by a mediocre small-town band, as a semi-designated driver no less. Can't say how badly I wanted to commandeer the equipment. What a way to ring in the new year!
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Like I'd said, there are two distinct delays to factor into the crossover. Chris since provided the ballpark math for the one; the other involves the speed of sound under particular atmospheric conditions versus the relative distances to the drivers. The two would "simply" be added or subtracted as needed for the final single value to be entered into the equipment.
As you'd figured, the AVR delay is a completely separate (third) consideration, and it would be addressed last. I rather doubt any such implementations are concerned with whether or what crossovers are in play.
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I just read through my previous post and see that I forgot a mental image item. The end-view "twisting" is effected much the same as if the waveforms were being "screwed" along a screw thread that has the same thread pitch as the frequency. One direction along that screw "the zero axis you'd be looking down" makes the wave "recede" from you while the other direction "proceed" toward you. Thus, in the case of "90 degrees each way" (12 dB/octave), it does not exactly cause a complete cancellation. There's a half-a-wavelength time difference between the equal-but-opposite polarity values you're seeing from the end view.
Maybe I should've just sat this one out?
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Here's a very simple way of looking at things. I'm going to attempt this by merely describing images you'll have to create in your mind.
Picture the side view of a sine wave on a graph. You've seen them a million times... It's at the frequency you'll be using for you're xover point. Now look down at it from the top. All you see is a straight line, the hills and dales are coming toward and going away from you. Now switch back to the side view where you started and step around so you're looking down the end of the graph as it's coming toward you. All you'll see is a vertical line extending equally above and below the axis of the graph, which you now see only as a point.
If you run that sine wave through an inductor it will rotate that vertical line 45 degrees to the left, while a capacitor in series will rotate it instead to the right. One element each way like this represents a 6dB/octave filter, and you see from the end (where you're still "standing") that the waveforms are now 90 degrees out of phase with each other.
Add another element to each "way" (a capacitor in parallel after the series inductor and a parallel inductor after the series capacitor), and you'll get a further rotation of 45 degrees each way at that frequency. What you'll be looking at is now a horizontal line with the two (what were originally the) "tops" at opposite ends from each other, thus completely out of phase with each other. If you combined the two signals they'd cancel each other out and collapse to just just the point in the middle (the graph axis you're now "looking down the barrel of").
(This is why you usually see the "+" and "-" of one of the two drivers swapped in a "conventional" 12dB/octave crossover. So that the drivers will be restored to being "in phase" at the crossover frequency. But more on this later.)
For each added element (another 6 dB/octave), the "end view rotation" twists another 45 degrees in their respective directions. So at 24 dB/octave the waveforms have ended up back in phase again, but this twisting involves a time element, so the "tops" and "bottoms" (of the traditional "side view") are no longer the exact same "tops" and "bottoms" when they "line back up in phase"; they're instead, while in phase, out of time.
I confess that I have little knowledge of how these different filters are synthesized in the digital domain. At first blush I would assume the filtering could be digitally performed without all the "analogesque" phase shenanigans. But perhaps that's what's required to effect the filtering...
So, when you're adjusting delays in the filters, there are actually two items under consideration. One is the amount of time it takes the sound to travel from each driver and the other is the amount of time between the now-separated waveforms they're reproducing.
Hope this does more good than harm to the discussion
Please don't ask me any questions about actual implementation as I have zero experience in that respect. I could only offer opinion after perusing applicable equipment manuals and I'm not particularly inclined at this time. My wonderful wife just recently allowed the purchase of a pair of Forte IIIs. She doesn't even begin to understand the allure of all this, much less how I might could (already!) be contemplating bi-amped Jubilees (or 402MEHs) with all the attendant electronics, and my further involvement here would, well, let's just leave it at my lack of inclination...
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It's relatively simple to fetch bites from the link above...
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Pins might be a good idea in lieu of tinning. A judicious dab of grease of some appropriate type applied prior to swaging, of course...
It all depends on how you're attaching things. I'm a fan of banana plugs, but terminal strips generally preclude those.
I tin pretty much everything that calls for "bare (stranded) wire and screw (or spring-loaded)" terminations. Luckily I have enough properly-leaded solder on hand to last my lifetime. Lead keeps the joint from growing whiskers, and I ain't gonna be eating the stuff anyway.
Going under a screw head? Either tin it and form a proper loop or crimp on a lug. Only way(s) to go that route in my book.
If it's worth doing, it's worth overkill.
Inexpensive Integrated Amplifiers
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Depends what your definition of "is" is. Sounds good, bit really just a little more like "ever so slightly DIY"?