Mallette

...in excellent condition at 175.00, plus a Dynaco mint PAS-4 at 27.00. I haven't seen them, but there is a bit of mystery. They appear to be matched Walnut, but the serial numbers don't add up. They are 3H067 and 88T000. Haven't opened them and looked at the drivers yet...think he may bring them by later today and we'll check. There was a packet with them with unsent cards, both SN 2H977. Any thoughts (other than murder)? Dave

My personal feeling is that, while SS amps of quality certainly exist and might even work well with horns, VT amps will generally cost less and perform better for our big ol horns. As to double blind (with apologies to MH), I've come to believe them to be of little value. I started down that trail reading some years ago of a DB test that took place during the acoustic era. Your basic real/recorded violinist behind curtains with listeners out front. You guessed it-couldn't tell which was which. That makes it a least APPEAR that DB results are largely based on prior conditioning. This was confirmed for me through a decade of decreasing listening during my all CD era. Being sold on "perfect sound forever," I was conditioned to believe that the LP was obsolete and inferior, and the the CD was state of the art and superior and that all CD players were essentially the same. What I did not realize is that a 150.00 CD player and a 150.00 TT are NOT equal. I believe that those out there who can accurately detect minute system differences have learned to do so after decades of training themselves to that end. That's a good thing...we need "wine tasters." But most of us do not need to become that acute, and our wallets and wives are very happy with that. Dave

Well, JM, given my late concern for absolutes I should suggest that the CDeluxe is quiet in MY system. I cannot speak for all of them everywhere. Given my experience with computers (fairly extenisive), I can certainly say that they are all quite different even when the components are essentially the same. As to OS and driver issues, I am still running 98. The computer on which I am working at the moment has been up 24/7 for over three months. I HATE Microsoft and was brought up with much more stable, competent, real multi-tasking OS which I won't get into because no one really believe it anyway. OTOH, if you keep it SIMPLE and don't overtax it, 98 can bet at least stable. This system does nothing but interent. My audio server does nothing but audio, my home banking system does nothing but accounting. The only one that gives me occasional blue screen is my video/audio/scanning etc. work system that has to really do a lot of things. If you are going to build an audio server, just keep it to audio. NT might be more stable, and CDeluxe has drivers, but I don't know about all the other software that is necessary. Dave

Wouldn't you need a 220 PS for this thing? Seems to me it would DEVOUR power playing Pomp and Pipes at full blast... Perhaps it should be pointed out to our Psy Ops people? Bet old Bobby Sherman records played on Klipsch Pro stuff at max would run the rats out of the holes but quick. Dave

Now, bearing in mind that I am music first, measurements second, I ask the following: What in the world would the computer power supply have to do with the minute requirements of the sound card? While I've not moved it from the HT computer I built a couple of years ago when my listening system was integrated with the TV, I paid 85.00 for a silent "high end" (quotes because HE for a computer, not necessarilly audio standpoint...I'm getting a bit paranoid about phrasing these days) power supply. It is very quiet. However that was what I paid for, and gave no thought to any audible issues. I am NOT saying it has no impact, just saying I've not heard anything to suggest it might. Of course, Dell builds a pretty robust system throughout, so it may have a pretty decent power supply. If anyone is interested in that silent PS, let me know an I will hunt down the outfit that supplies it. Every computer system is different, that is why I am specifying this Dell 410, because I cannot trace any sonic issues to it. As to noise, I can turn it full up with no signal and it is as silent as any other input on my system, with the exception of the phono stage. Sure, there is a bit of hiss, but utterly inable at maximum real listening levels, which are about 3 o'clock on my system since I'm running the HK Citation 12 at 100w/ch. I hope this doesn't change with the AVA70i when it returns (SOON, I hope!). Perhaps it is because I've nothing else in there but the graphics card and placed the CDeluxe at the far side of the bus? Don't know. I just know there is no noise that I can hear that could be traced to the computer. I DID have a problem when I had the CPU sitting on the same cabinet as the TT. I moved it, problem solved. I am reasonably certain this will be of no help, as I don't have much credibility in the hearing department on the Forum due to my claims...perhaps for good reason. However I wish to state again that both my recordings and my system have impressed, even astonished, many musicians, music lovers, and audiophiles in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. It may be we are talking about a different standard or something, but I'm getting nothing but music from this thing, and I am listening to CD's with pleasure for the first time ever. Back to another point..."state of the art." Since that doesn't work for some of you, please re-phrase to mean something that DOES work for however you define as the best you can get sonically without getting to Bill Gates class of financial resources. I'd still like to hear some suggestions as to how a system with the specs I suggested could be improved within financial reason (and I'll leave that to the responders to determine where it might lie). Let's just forget the equipment and set the specs: -Transparent playback of digital material (again, you define) -random access -unlimited storage -net ability -24/96 (as well as all below) record capable Even assuming it is perhaps not quite as good (which remains to be proven to me...though I'm open), I suspect a significant number of Forum members would prefer the above capabilities for the same price as a single-drawer CD player. But then, TJMHO. Dave

OK, that is unbelieveably awesome. What would it sound like (besides LOUD)? Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Come taste muh'

...and cost with the below qualities? I've attempt to format the below with as few absolutes as possible in an attempt to make it acceptable, at least as opinion, to as wide a Forum audience as possible. The CDeluxe/Dell 410 is capable of resolving the limited musical information available to the CD format in a way that encourages the avid music listener who has been skeptical of the CD format to relegate any remaining artifacts to the catagory of greatly diminishing returns. Further, it's ability to provide easy access to hundreds or thousands of CD's and add remote control to vintage systems provides a flexibility that no dedicated high-end player of which I am aware can achieve. Add to that the fact that if a home network is available one can simultaneously stream real time music to every connected computer. Top it off with the ability to archive LP's to 24/96 with a level of quality few non-audiophiles are going to be able to tell from the original, and that few audiophiles are going to suggest is not of excellent quality and worth listening to as opposed to the destructive play of the originals, and you've got something well worth 379.00, and not available otherwise in a DIY package. Not having made anything like an exhaustive survey of available sound cards, it is quite possible there is another or more that might be adequate or even superior in this application. If so, the substitute the cost/brand of your favorite. Here's the "challenge:" To any of the high-end advocates who would care to give it a whirl, I would really enjoy your putting together the above capabilities at a level you would consider "state of the art" so we can have a real-world price comparison. As a $tereophile subscriber (not much left for those of us on a budget with Listener gone), I know it can be done. Dave Yours in fun and fellowship, Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Come taste muh'

I fully agree with mdeneen about CD technology. When it first came out, it was considered downright miraculous, and even now can sound pretty darn good. While, of course, 24/96 is over twice as dense as 16/44.1, it does, indeed take around 2 gig for an hours worth. Would like to find shn for these! I've gotten EAC going, and am getting excellent results. With every "get it right" function on, my best is around 6X using a 52X CD...though that's plenty fast. Interestingly, seems a burner is not a good choice for ripping due to it's cache. My HP is a really fine drive, but EAC suggested the 52X bargain special because of the cache issue. It also said the bargain special supported C2 checking, but not the HP. Go figure. Couple of questions: I can't seem to get shn to launch auto after ripping from EAC even though the executable is there and I've both inserted the path and set EAC to launch the external processor. Reviewed Dick's site and still can't see the problem. Also, I am having to re-set the m3u files manually in WinAmp after shn processing. EAC looks them up and creates it, but, of course, the extension changes when shn is applied. Any cure for this? Rip n' Roll Dave

MH: You are absolutely correct about the brush. Got me head turned around. Gil: I can't really follow that, so will not dispute. I never worked in the disc cutting end of the business. However, the "print through" issue I discribed was a given in the magnetic tape area. I used to cue tapes by cranking them up and listening for the PT point. Dave

I've never heard that, but I've used Stantons with the brush in the past. Guess it could happen. But now I'm asking myself "Self, how could a brush trailing the stylus create a pre echo?" Dave This message has been edited by Mallett on 09-05-2002 at 08:46 PM

WooHoo. SHN is really cool. Of course, I am assuming it is lossless as advertised. Suppose the ear will tell, but I've just increased the capacity of an 80 gig drive from around 130 or so CD's to 260 or more. That is KEWL! So what is an MD5 file? I like the looks of EAC as well, but haven't given it a try. I'm wondering just how much the error checking slows it down. Lot's of options to figure out, but this looks like what I've been really wanting. Thanks again for the links! Dave

Question: Will the shn software handle 24/96, and will the winamp shn plugin play it? These suckers are BIG, and I've quite a few LP's to record. Dave

Don't adjust your set. You are experiencing a phenomenon every audiophile and professional would have recognized 25 years ago. The slight pre-echo is called "print through" and is the result of the strong signal on a layer of magnetic tape magnetizing an image of itself on the adjoining layer above, which is, of course, silent at the beginning. Most pros used very thick tape and the Europeans in particular stored their tapes tales out to prevent. Dave

dndphishin: THANKS for the links! Have downloaded all and can't wait to try. I've been using CDex very successfully, but having the extra confidence check will be very useful professionally. Also looking forward to shn, as I've been storing my CD's as wav files...more bang for the gbyte! Audio Flynn: Please give CDeluxe a try and report. I've been fighting a tough battle to convince skeptical audiophiles that this is the best non-analog deal there is. Dave

MH: The Card Deluxe folks seem to have done a heckuva job of minimizing or eliminating contamination from the computer. The worst noise is from the fans, though this is a pretty quite computer and any music at all covers it. I am not hearing any issues at all...but then that could just be my hearing. I really would love it if you'd give CDeluxe a try. As I said, it's provided LP transfers that I can listen to without wanting to jump up and put the record on. That's a first. As I have enormous respect for your experience and opinion, it would be great to hear what you have to say. "The ideal of CDs only fit for autos etc is a bit much, and I am sure no CD fan." Hey, don't hang that on me. I was simply pointing out that that was my personal experience with nothing more than auto CD players, discmans, and 150.00 Sony changers to go on. I find myself listening to quite a bit more CD's with the Card Deluxe. Dave

You are correct, sir. Except that the CDROM drive serves only to transfer the redbook data to the CPU. No soundcard involved at all. After that, it's stored on HDD and played back through the Card Deluxe. I've about 140 CD's stored as untranscoded wav files, all with automatically generated (via web access to CDDB) playlists with names, titles, and timing. I could set up a playlist with over a month of music if I wanted. As I cannot afford the kilobuck plus required to get a really good CD player (nor do I understand any longer just why I'd want to do that, since Card Deluxe is only 400.00 and records 24/96 to boot), I do not have any kind of "CD player" in the system. I rather doubt that CD's are capable of sounding much better than I am hearing them now. I'd found them suitable only for automobiles and background music in the past, and I don't do much of either. The few LP's I've recorded to 24/96 are the first recordings I've made of LP's since I used 15ips R-R and DBX encoding that I've found satisfying. All for a lousy 400.00. Yeah, I know us financially challenged music lovers shouldn't get deals like this...but it happens. Dave

You don't even need a soundcard to rip. Only the file format is changed from redbook "form" to wav. The software handles error correction. Once this is done. the file will never change so long as the system is functioning. The quality of the output after this is entirely dependent upon the soundcard and the rest of the chain. Dave Dave

Geez, MH, we seem to fly right past each other. OK, so I am looking at a wav file right now in HEX, trying for the life of me to see how so much as a digit could get changed during playback. I've granted than extremely small variations due to the data streaming scheme may make each redbook playback inconsistent (probably inaudible on a high end CD player) with another. However, once extracted it is never, never, never, never gonna change on an HDD as long as that HDD lives. Even then, copy to another will yield a perfect likeness, with a CRC checksum to prove it. Maybe in your eyes it is going to be wrong...but it is going to be consistently wrong in exactly the same way each and every play. What in this so offends your sensibilities? Dave

Good analysis, and all the more reason to dump your CD's to HDD where this uncertainty will end. If it sounds good the first time, it isn't going to change. I also burn CD as wav files for backup. However, you did not mention the fact that part of the scheme vastly increases the likelyhood of accurate decoding, the C1 and C2 layers. This redundancy goes a long way towards insuring a good and consistent rip, or good play if the player is good enough. Dave

Don't really think it is necessary to assume ignorance on the part of others simply because you read the data differently. I understand how CIRC works, and have great faith that it works almost perfectly, certainly beyond sensory level. Now, as to the compression you speak of, you must bear in mind there is such a thing as trully lossless compression. Zip and the old Microsoft disc doubler scheme are examples of this. Now for a question, because I really do not know the format of WAV and DAT files. What I DO know is that file sizes remain identical for these formats when transferred to redbook and back. Further, the sound quality does not change at all, at least to anyone I've ever exposed to them. Playback definitely varies on CD players, but the original quality always returns when transferred back to wav or DAT. BTW, one good Plextor, the UtraPlex 40, reports the number of C2 errors to the software to insure precise output. Like the Bible, science can be used to support almost anything. Is there ZERO jitter and absolutely not a single 1 or 0 lost in every rip to HDD? I can neither know that nor do I really care as long as it is near enough to be inaudible. I've hear lots of difference in CD players, and in every case so far the quality of the DAC electronic circuitry was clearly the issue. Played back from an HDD through a Card Deluxe (or a Mark Levinson outboard DAC), the sound will be as good as the format is capable and the downstream components can produce. Granted, the last paragraph is opinion, but I believe it to be informed opinion based on research. Next DFW Audio Forum meeting, perhaps I can get more ears to work to see if others have the same experience. A/B/C's of the same files played blind from DAT, audio server, and high end CD player. I'm certainly game for it and, as I said early, always ready to stand corrected. Dave

MH, you've probably never met a person more willing to change a position when proven wrong. However, when my ears and solid science team up, I've either got to go with it or go nuts. I'll grant you that jitter is an issue with dedicated CD players (though just how audible it is is open to debate)...OTOH, rather than throw 1000's of bucks at high end CD players, I offer two fool-proof ways to eliminate this issue. 1. Extract (not DAE, but continuous file extraction) the CD to an HDD. Every bit will be transferred with less or equal to the quality of the best outboard jitter box. 2. Get a CDROM drive (Plextors are noted for this) that has circuitry to accurately address each block. Jitter eliminated, either free or for 70.00 or so if you aren't sure your CDROM has the circuitry. Ray: the above applies to your comments as well. Cables are not a digital issue for extracting from CD's since the data goes straight to the bus. Dave

Errors are either corrected or whatever the data is doesn't work. If you don't believe it, go into any dll or executable that will allow you to open in a binary editor, or use one of the drive utilities that allow you to edit files. Change just ONE word by ONE bit. It will not run. Computer data is far more sensitive to errors than music or ears. Here is a real world experiment that could be done. 1. Tranfer a piece of music to HDD via a cheap CD-ROM and the same piece from a 5,000 transport. 2. Print out the binary data from each. 3. Restore that data to a file and burn two redbook CD's. 4. Playback on identical high end systems and see if you can tell the difference. There is no doubt in my mind what the result would be. Further, how does one obtain a "high end" HDD? Many of the best music CD's are recorded direct to HDD. Again, the drive either accurately records and plays the data, or it doesn't work at all. Every computer user with any experience knows that when a several year old drive starts to blue screen that the end is near. Even then, mapping bad blocks may restore complete integrity for a short period. I consider "transport" as applied to a CD drive the same as applied to a turntable. The transport function ends when a binary data stream is presented, just as the TT function ends when an analog electrical stream is presented. Like I said, I'm perfectly content to give the benefit of the doubt to power line conditioners, kilobuck speaker cables and interconnects, etc. However, I'm not willing to defile my own sense of logic by accepting the idea that one digital data stream is somehow superior to another. Of course, when it gets to the DAC and the rest of the chain, all bets are off! Dave

"The transport is NOTHING? This is what I am talking about. If it makes you feel better about your computer drive when discussing the transport as having absolutely nothing to do with sonics, then power to you. Even engineers in digital talk of this now to the point where it's almost a given. Just when you think the bits is bits thing is dead, here it pops up in the Klipsch Forum, albeit in another form. Although the transport difference can be subtle, I have heard it several times, both in my system and others. Indeed, even the transport within CD players makes a difference in the sonics." Gosh, MH, like I said, there is no way I can either dispute or understand what YOU hear. I am simply suggesting that I hear something else. In my 20's, my hearing extended well into the 20khz region. I was an audio engineer, and dealt with a lot of issues. I was involved in music from the 5th grade, and in choir until leaving college for the Army in my early 20's. Since then, I've had season tickets to the DSO at the Meyerson for years, as well as attending endless organ, choir, chamber music, damn near anything concerts. Further, I do location recording of anything of quality for prices rangeing from zero to market rates, depending upon the ability of the person to pay. All that is not to impress, but simply to suggest I am not deaf. Let me state again: rips of my master recordings from CD's on a 19.00 cd transport sound identical to the master DAT both on my own system and at least on Jeff's, which is much more up your alley. All you can do to dispute this is to tell me I cannot hear properly. There is no technical language that will work. Further, I'll even grant that maybe I don't hear properly. Thank the Lord! It saves me money and worry. Remember what I suggested about printing out the digital words of a piece of music, then dumping them back? Do you REALLY think it would sound different because it had been in print? Stick to analog...it's a lot more ambiguous. Not really trying to piss you or anyone off here, just had a couple of beers and a bunch of good music... Cheers, Dave

As there is enough in that article to thoroughly outrage those who believe in magic copper, etc., I'll just toss one thing out there: "CD Players All CD players do exactly the same thing. They "read" the data from the disk, consisting of bits signifying "1"s and "0"s, and send that data to the buffer. From the buffer the data goes to the Digital to Analogue Conversion chips. The DAC chips convert that data according it's own clock. Vibration isolation, belt drives, special weights, disk covers, "anti-jitter" cables, power isolation circuits, and all that nonsensical psuedo-science junk that unnecessarily raises the prices of CD players has absolutely no affect on the sound. The $25 CD-Rom drive in your computer does not do anything any differently than the $33,000 Bermester or Mark Levinson or other overpriced CD "transport." What does effect the sound quality are the quality and sophistication of the DAC chips." He is dead on here. DAC is everything, the transport nothing. If I took all the digital words off a CD, printed it and OCR'd it back to digital...it would SOUND THE SAME. The data is either there or not. For my trip to Jeff's the other day, I transfered back to HDD a couple of my own location recordings. Instead of the DAT master, I just used a burned CD. Identical, as I knew it had to be. I've never really pooh-pooh the pricey cable folks and such, as I do not in fact believe I have any answers for those things. I know that I personally do not hear any difference, but that certainly doesn't mean someone else might. It would be metaphysically absurd for me to claim to know what another person hears. OTOH, this one thing is self-evident. The data is either transferred or it is not. If you can load an OS with a CD rom drive, you can read an audio CD perfectly. The quality of CD/digital music begins at the DAC, period. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Come taste muh'

For disatisfied owners of Klipschorns, I offer a 24/7 pickup and disposal service. Just call 817 430-3662 and I'll come with lights and siren. Dave