drdiaboloco

>>>But, unfortunately, can be outdone by nearly any of the above for less $<<< Actually, all of the above subs are more expensive than the RW-12, near as I can tell... Except the snap-together Dayton and Klipsch's own Sub-12. I've not yet heard an Sub-12 and can't comment as to whether it "beats" the RW-12. As for the others? Some are very good indeed, but you seem to have a very poor opinion of the RW-12.

The RW-12 is a great sub, digs deep enough and is quite musical... And comes in well under your $700 limit.

Oh, to answer the original question, it sounds GREAT with music.

Well, of COURSE. You can apply this logic to practically anything... Why be a loser and own a Porsche 911 Carrera Cabriolet when for only twice as much you can have a Ferrari F360 Spyder?? At some point the performance for the dollar equation has to be considered, and in this context the RW12 beats the RSW12 hands down. Yes, the RSW12 has a nicer finish, more power, and overall is a better sub... But what is the opportunity cost of that additional $500-$600? Not all of us can afford over a grand for a sub... Somwhere a line has to be drawn. That is why (for instance) I own a Mazda6 S instead of a BMW 540i.

Well I got mine from a bona-fide dealer for $550 all-in, meaning sales tax included. This dealer was already peeved at me for returning not one but two other subs, the Definitive ProSub 200TL (or something like that) and a floor model RSW-10... But third time's the charm, I guess. I like my RW-12 very much, and don't think you can do better for the money. As for the SVS, HSU, etc., noone ever seems to include the cost of getting the thing to your house. A year ago I called SVS and asked if I could pick up at the point of manufacture, and they gave me an emphatic "NO".

How about the option that (yet again) noone has suggested.... Klipsch RW-12. I brought mine home for $550 including sales tax, from a local authorized dealer with an actual return policy. I've already learned around this forum, I guess, that if you go Klipsch you'd better go RSW or you're not really "in the club". Just like the poor saps who buy the Synergy series... It may say Klipsch on the front but it's like you just bought a BMW 318 when a "real" fan gets the 325. In any case, the RW-12 sounds great and it sails in far enough under your price point that you can get a good cable.

I bought an RW-12 last week. I am happy with the purchase. I have it in a 3000cuft room and it will do a fine job vibrating your furniture. It won't hit as hard or as deep as the more expensive subs, but it does sound good and it will fill in the hole below the rolloff of your main speakers. In my case it's not a night-and-day difference as the main speakers are theoretically capable of something like 35hz at -3dB, but those last 15Hz now have their own driver and their own amp, so my system doesn't sound like it's struggling (I have the receiver's crossover set at 80Hz, actually). It's a good sub for a fair price, I got mine from an authorized dealer for $550 with tax. Just don't wait around for the SVS gang to compliment you on your purchase.

*Update* Returned the RSW-10 (looks like there was a problem with the active driver) and got the RW-12 instead, for $550 with tax. Nice sounding sub, roughly equivalent to the RSW-10, after setting it up all proper-like. It is not as good a sound as the RSW-10, but for what I paid I'm happy with it.

I find it ironic that this has gone on for three pages, the "Talk Klipsch on a Klipsch forum" stuff... And when I asked a question about a Klipsch product a couple of days ago, about the RW-12, I got exactly one response. People are more than happy to argue about whether or not you should mention other brands yet don't offer much input when a Klipsch product question arises... Guess I should've asked about an SVS instead (and I did, and got more responses).

Aha, but it wasn't $550, it was $599. The $550 was for the RW-12. After several hours of listenin', I would say that I'm impressed but for the rattling sound that the driver gets at certain frequencies (the active driver only)... and that danged rattling is unacceptable. It's not bottoming out or anything, it's a reedy, even farty sound that is quite obvious even from ten feet away (but there's no visible damage, it's not like the surround or the cone are ruptured or anything). It goes back tomorrow, either for a repair or a refund. I will say this, it does hit harder than I expected. LOTR Return of the King, the battle scenes in specific, were a wonder. DSOTM on SACD was pretty darned good, as was other pop music on CD with some good low bass. Too bad all doesn't seem well with this unit... I didn't even abuse it, never got it above -05 for movies or 00 for music on the Denon 3802 (after setting the levels properly, natch, zeroed out on the SW out level and only 1/3 or so on the vol control on the side of the unit, all speakers set to "small" and LFE Out only).

...and I bought it, with the stipulation that I could return it if I were unsatisfied. I wandered in to see what their "no s***" price was on the RW-12, which was $549... And then the salesman sez, "You know, we're selling our last RSW-10 for $599." After a lot of hemming and hawing, I took it home. It's sitting in my foyer. I'll post this before listening, but I'm lookin' for opinions... For later viewing, of course. RSW-10 or RW-12? Or... "Other"?

...what about the RW-12? Somehow this unit escaped my notice, and I guess I can add it to my list of possible suspects. Realistically, the retail price of this unit is my absolute top end $$$-wise, so any fantasies of PB2's must be discarded. Anyhoo... I've searched all the threads that include this sub, and it doesn't sound like it's gotten raves. Is it because the expectations were/are too high, or that the similarly priced subs from them thar internet-only companies simply beat it? The RW-12 seems to get the most column-inches here for being better than the KSW-12 (not a huge achievement, IMHO), cheaper than the RSW-12 (thank God), and is generally received with a lukewarm response. I am not a bass hog and have gotten on just fine without a sub of any kind ("serious sub" or otherwise) for over a year now. My main speakers can hit around 30-35hz at -3dB, and are in fact capable of giving my couch a shiver when playing LF music and movies, so maybe I don't NEED a "floor shaker". And frankly, I can't afford a grand for a sub, not least because I find myself actually spending less and less time watching TV and/or sitting in my LR listening to music... My darn job keeps me away from home too much. I guess I should mention that I was unimpressed by the DefTech ProSub-200TL in my listening room... Much to the annoyance of my local dealer, I might add, when I wandered back to the store sub-in-hand and got my refund. This unit, for those that don't know, is roughly equivalent in size (but not weight, the RW-12 is 15lbs heavier), power and price to an RW-12 (though I paid $450 for it), and the manufacturer's lies, errrr, specs quote a freq response of 3hz lower than the RW-12. It sounded fine, I guess, but I didn't feel it punch me in the gut in the manner that I'd hoped for and expected for a front-firing sub aimed right at my seating position. This is all a roundabout way of asking if anyone has any raves about the RW-12, and if so, how much off retail should I try to wrench out of my local dealers (there are two now!) before I walk? My defection to another brand of speaker notwithstanding, I still like Klipsch a lot and wonder if anyone has any real-world experience with this sub and can provide feedback. Thankee!

How about I just get myself adopted by the other poster who claims to have THREE RSW-15's? I can't even afford ONE! I thought maybe the two 10's would be easier to place, too, than the one 12. If you compute the displacement of each individual sub, the two 10's are about 90% the size of the 12... And the total amp power is the same. I was also worried about the sonic hole that the large openings in the back of the room leave, and maybe two sources would be better than one. Either way... Maybe I'll make sure I've paid my mortgage before I drop another grand.

Here's food for thought... Two of the new PB10-ISD's or one PB12-ISD/2? I have a room that's 3000cuft, but on one end of the room's back wall it exits into a completely open 8X8 opening into the dining room, and the other end of the back wall exits into the stairs going up to the second floor, with an 18' ceiling over the stairs... I'm thinking perhaps two of the newer, smaller subs would even out the very weird room response (and bass 'leakage') I will get with a single sub. Thoughts? Not to mention that the two subs will be less than that one big bruiser, at least before shipping is taken into account.

I have my doubts about the SF-3. A casual listen to them in BB a few weeks ago left me with the impression that they aren't any better, just bigger. Whatever you do, though, don't go for the SF-1... Those are a serious step down, unless maybe you would want to use them as the rear surrounds. The SC-1 is obviously a darn sight smaller than the SC-3, and overpriced IMHO at retail, but you can get a good-to-mint condition SC-1 for a hundred bucks on eBay. I have two, in fact, and if you want one send me an pm. I dunno, I have suspicions that the new, bigger Synergies are there primarily to impress the "bigger speakers must be better" crowd, and the older middle-of-the-line Synergies are better on a dollar-for-dollar basis, not to mention sounding better as well.

Funny... I read this thread, fully expecting to have to say "what kind of list would NOT include U2?" Imagine my stunned surprise to find them number THREE. Heck, suprised to see them on the list at ALL. Now I feel validated. Yes, I am THAT much a loser. But really now, why on earth is Mr. Marley on there? I like BM&tW and all, but a top ROCK musician?? Methinks a little PC nonsense was involved here. Or pot. Take your pick. In any case, the author included LedZep, The Beatles, and Pink Floyd, thus rounding out three more of my personal Top Ten. Very suprised, in addition, to see some of my other favorites (REM, Bruce, The Cure, Bowie, CCR, etc.) in the "honorable mentions". So... For once I can't complain TOO much about "yet another top ten list".

---------------- On 3/22/2004 12:03:07 PM Just1n20 wrote: no one can mess with the 91' Maxima pushing 190k with no limiter Don't you mean... The "Four Door Sports Car"? At least that's how they advertised it back in the day, to the extent that they actually had a sticker in the rearmost side windows that said, in two-inch tall letters, "4DSC". I'll be the first to give you props on a Maxima of that vintage. Real fun car. It was the only reasonably-priced 4-door that would give a Taurus SHO a run for its money a dozen years ago. Of course both the Maxima and the SHO were pretty well covered by the M5, both then and now... But at the time you could've gotten a loaded Maxima SE and a Taurus SHO, and a decent vacation as well, for the price of that BMW!

Well... We can feel free to dream, can't we? My thirty minutes in a GTS was my most memorable time in a car. Errr, except for that one incident with my ex, of course, but that's best left unexamined! All I can say is that I definitely, DEFINITELY wasn't going 115 on (the otherwise empty) New Highway on Long Island in that amazing 450hp red missile. No way. Perhaps even better than the car is the way OTHER people react to it. A carload of teenagers in a GTI nearly drove off the road trying to get a better look at the thing, and it put a smile on every face in a fifty foot radius. Except, perhaps, the guy in the minivan on the Southern State Parkway who didn't think I should've passed him quite so quickly... Good thing I don't own one of those myself, as I doubt my license would survive the experience.

Done. I ain't gonna go back and read the last 150+ posts in here, rudi, so please remind me... Is that your Viper in your avatar? If so, you've got me seething with jealousy. I had a chance to drive a GTS a few years back, methinks it was a '97. One of the students at my flight school had one, a red one no less, and I talked my way into a test drive. WITHOUT THE OWNER! That car sure put the fear o' God in me... May be the only time a four-wheeled vehicle had me trembling from adrenaline overload after I finished with it!

>>>Still lookin' for trouble heh? I'm flattered to be worth so much attention from you<<< Don't be flattered. This is basic boredom, which only proves I have nothing better to do with some free moments on a couple of days off than cross swords with a "holier-than-thou" type on the Klipsch Forum. Also don't think I am going to be baited by your none-too-"discrete" suggestions as to why people like dual outlets. Heck, they sure seem to get YOU excited. I won't discuss horn speakers on this thread, because that's not what it's about. I'll discuss horn speakers on threads that are devoted to them. If you want to talk CARS, and ditch the insulting nonsense, I'm all ears. Or eyes. Take your pick. Either way I am not going to entertain this particular line of discussion any further.

Not wishing the civility to go completely down the toilet, I offer the following instead. For the record, former cars include, more or less in order: -1972 Chevy Monte Carlo (Auto) Not an SS, unfortunately. Front suspension broke after hitting a huge pothole, would've cost more to fix than the car was worth. The only V8 I've ever owned, but this car was long past it's "use by date" when I got my mitts on it in 1985. Lasted for only six or eight more months in the hands of a 17 year-old with visions of Indycar racing dancing in his head. Observed top speed of about 110mph, if memory serves. I don't think the high-speed aerodynamics of the thing were helped at all by the hole in the left rear quarter panel through to the trunk that was big enough to slip my bookbag in out of. No lie. -1980 Chevy Citation V6 (4spd) Not as bad a car as you'd think! This one lasted to nearly 110k miles, the last 45k of which were at my hand. Had a huge appetite for clutches, though. Don't know where this one topped out, because it had no tach and the speedo stopped at 85 (remember those days?). I'll guess around a hundred. -1986 Mercury Sable LS (Auto) Hand-me-down from dad when the Citation expired. Had a truly stirring high-speed crash with this one, driving over a boulder as I went off the road, finishing off the engine block, floor, and the fuel tank in the process. Long story. Top speed estimated at 115, based upon the digital tach, this speedo also stopped at 85. -1988 Ford Thunderbird Turbo (5spd) Quick, but about as refined as the Citation, which wasn't very. The turbo four-banger made enough power to spin the wheels all day long, but was noisy as a lawn tractor and just as nice to listen to. Observed top speed of about 130-135, based upon the same tach-math as the Sable. -1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (5spd) Had this only briefly, thanks to insurance concerns. But boy, was it ever fun in the snow... And when it wasn't snowing, this would do an honest 135. -1990 VW Jetta (5spd) Ultimately this was tricked out to the nines for autocrossing, but rode like a go-kart. Still managed to hang onto this one for 150k miles from new. Great car, and I miss it dearly. Barely capable of breaking 100mph. -1992 Ford Taurus SHO (5spd) Unreliable as all git-out, expensive to fix, but boy was it fun. Observed top speed of 140. -2001 Ford Focus ZX-3 (5spd) Gets a lot of bad press, but it's not on Car and Driver's Top Ten list four years running for nothing. Great car for the money, esp. when you don't have much money, which I didn't at the time I got it. I heartily recommend this car to anyone who needs good, fun transportation in the low-to-mid teens price range. Speed-limited to 106, where there's a fuel cutoff. Or so I'm told. *wink wink nudge nudge* ...and now the gaudy Mazda6 S (5spd). Don't know what this one will "do", since I haven't tried. I think I've outgrown such experiments. I think. FWIW, I am jealous of the poster who gets to drive a new Falcon Jet. I have to get by with a Saab.

On 3/20/2004 1:31:37 PM TBrennan wrote: >>>Loco---Actually I said nothing against Japanese cars in general, mentioning Hondas and, ah, Pontiacs for their use of cheesy phony duals.<<< Really? Then what, exactly, did you mean by saying the following earlier in the thread: >>>Yeah, Hondas are nice cars if you're a certain kind of guy, a metrasexual type who digs pissant V-6s for instance.<<< Or.... Since you said you said nothing against Japanese cars in general, only casually mentioning Hondas... >>>I see nothing cool about foreign cars, nothing. I think they're effete.<<< Or.... >>>the smarmy new-age mentality that thinks they're cool, that's effete. Degenerate. UnAmerican self-loathing<<< Then there's the head-scratching weirdness of your fixation on dual exhausts... >>>Y pipe exhaust is forever cheap and phony, like something from J.C. Whitney's<<< Then you decide to kill your own argument by pointing out the Camaro's use of single exhaust, and how the other cars without dual exhausts are phonies. Now... Why do you think YOUR car has duals? The Camaro SS got by with single exhaust. Heck, the last-generation Viper, to choose another American-brand car, got by with single exhaust in later model years. You decry the Japanese for using phony duals, but has it ever occurred to you that the Crown Vic doesn't need duals, either? Could it be they were put there to impress the buyers? Like... YOU? This is followed shortly by another of your posts attacking Honda, wherein you amazingly seem to have forgotten calling other people and/or their cars, up to this point, "cheesy", "UnAmerican", "metrasexual", "phony", "pissant", "effete", "degenerate", etc... Again, I quote YOU... All before I posted, I might add: >>>You know this thread was going fine, nobody bumrapped anybody else's choice until you piped up to tell me how much better your Honda is<<< And to prove how high-minded you are, you helpfully add: >>>Most of the guys I see driving Hondas are chinless nerds; no-balls desk-jockeys with cell-phones prominently displayed like a Red Badge of Courage. Guys who do what they're told. Or chicks.<<< Thank goodness you aren't into flaming, because only God knows where the "line" is for you between flaming and outright insults. Like, I dunno, calling someone's car "gaudy", then trying to sound reasonable, and then going postal on the exhaust again: >>>But regardless of who makes it I consider it a gaudy car. I looked at the Mazda sedan before I bought the Vic, mechanically it's a VERY nice package. But the styling is a bit overdone for me and the dashboard and it's lighting is of unsurpassed ugliness. And there remain the fatal false duals.<<< And as for THIS: >>>It's not discrete of you to come here flaming away given the present state of things.<<< Pot, meet the kettle, for you are both black. As for MY post... Well, aside from pointing out the obvious, which is that BOF cars are almost extinct and therefore not particularly modern, that you can't get a manual in a Crown Vic, and that your zeroing in on a car's EXHAUST SYSTEM of all things is just plain odd... I did no flaming. Engaged in quite a bit of sarcasm, yes. Insult YOU, personally? Nope. Not a word of it. Something you can't say, I'm afraid. This is not flaming, this isn't even FIGHTING for crying out loud, but what it is... Is exposing you for being a two-faced name-caller. Don't try to take the high ground here, you've already shown you can't. You can't read your own posts and then accuse ME of being indiscreet. Must be because I have a y-pipe.

Michael Hurd... I believe you might have missed the point of the post... This was not aimed at BOF cars as such, but at the incredibly condescending post by another board member who went on a rant against Japanese cars (apparently having a real bug up his keister about Honda in specific), made fun of them for not having true-dual exhaust, and smugly pointed out that his CV was not a unit-body. I am not "that guy" who makes fun of the other guy who didn't buy the "right" car... Nor do I take sides in the imports v. domestic battle, having owned both and in fact primarily have bought Fords. I do find it hysterical that someone who decries "Jap crap" that's built and usually at least partially designed in the USA would drive a car built in, *ahem*, Canada. One of life's little ironies, I guess. Upon reading my own post now, it reads much worse than it seemed when I typed it. Blame the fine people who make Killian's and the distillery at Smirnoff, too... Classic example of "drunk posting". Leave it to me to break a cardinal rule. I will happily edit or otherwise hack up my own post if it is offensive to anyone other than he to whom I was responding in the first place.

2003 Mazda6 S. 5spd, of course. Now if only it was a manly, modern body-on-frame car with "true" duals instead of a y-pipe. We all know that the best cars are not unit-body and have "true" dual exhaust... These are the only measures of the goodness of a car, and the quality of the drivetrain, brakes, interior, styling, reliabilty, resale value, etc. are immaterial. The following automobile manufacturers are to be ridiculed for not offering manly body-on-frame automobiles in their arsenal (in no particular order): Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Chevrolet, Saab, Aston-Martin, Honda, Toyota, Maserati, Subaru, ChryCo, Kia, Hyundai, Fiat, Citroen, Peugeot, Mitsubishi, Audi, Volkswagen, Pontiac, Mazda, Dodge, Acura, Bentley, Volvo, Suzuki, Lexus, Vauxhall, Opel, Lamborghini, Nissan, Maybach, Jaguar, Mini, Saturn, Alfa Romeo, Scion, and many more I can't quite think of off the top of my head. Clearly those 38+ brands are wrong. Unit-body cars are a fool's design. Not to mention "real men" only drive automatics. Much more difficult than girly manuals, which naturally are not offered on a ********-enhancing Crown Vic. D*** my "Japanese" car that's made in Michigan (that's in the United States of America, by the way, just north of Indiana and Illinois in case you'd missed it). Shame on me!! Should've gotten that oh-so-modern, manly V8 Crown Vic, made in St. Thomas (that's in CANADA, by the way). I hang my head in shame. Though, in reality, only because the upgraded audio system is branded by *gasp!!* Bose. In future, I'll be sure to check with TBrennan to find a very Stereophile-like list of "Recommended Cars". Hopefully they'll all be made in Canada (don't want no 'Merkin made cars, thanks), have true duals (that y-pipe ruins it for me), a frame that the body bolts to (in keeping with current trends in automotive engineering), and not require anything approaching a thought process when it comes time to shift gears (thinking hurts my head). I want everything about my next automotive purchase to reflect the absolute pinnacle of modern automotive design, like the cutting-edge Crown Victoria.

I particularly like the phono jacks (!!) above the binding posts. Just like Klipsh! As for the theory that a thousand-dollar Patek Philippe knockoff is worth it just for the mechanism... Keep in mind that an ETA sweep-hand mechanical movement can probably be had for under two hundred dollars. One that is a certified chronometer will cost much more, but nowhere near a grand. Keep in mind that the retail on, say, an Omega Speedmaster quartz and a Seamaster Chronometer is around five hundred bucks, and everything aside from the movement is the same... And I don't believe for a second that the movement costs that much more. Didn't stop ME from spending that much more, however!