ben.

That's fair and good guesswork, too. I was going to leave it be for a while so as not to color people's perceptions of it, but there doesn'tseem to be any interest, so I might as well spill it now. Yes, it's stereo and most instruments had a mic near them, but my recording techniques were tilted towards older methods. We tried a single mic and it just wasn't happening. We didn't have a good enough or big enough room to make that work (or the budget to rent a suitable space). So... Drums - kick miced w/ Audix D4, single ribbon (Apex215) for overhead. Bass - Beyer M88 wrapped in foam and stuck in the bridge. El gtr - tube amp miced w/ Apex215 ribbon Lap steel - tube amp miced with Beyer M500 ribbon Two ART M-Five ribbons were used - one to capture the acoustic gtr (and his backing vox), the other to capture the fiddle, accordian an both of their backing vox. A single Apex460 tube condenser (same as Telefunken M13) in sub-cardioid (tried omni but some rejection helped keep the drums reasonably seperate) was used on the vocals. It was completely live. ART MPA Gold tube pres were used on more critical channels, then into Akai DPS16 multitrack. Mix down was interesting - I came out of the Akai using 5 of its busses into ProVLA-II tube vactrol compressors (and a tube Bellari LA120 as well), then out of those into an Oram OctaMix summing box. From there the stereo mix went into an old US-made ProVLA comp, then into a Korg MR-1 stereo recorder at 1-bit/2.8MHz. Unfortunately, I had to master at 16/44.1 since there is no affordable & useful editing available at the 1/2.8M resolution. The online files are 192k mp3. It was definitely an interesting experience to make it all work. Thanks for the feedback, Art. I am glad you didn't find the compression to be too apparent - that was something I spent a lot of time on.

If that is in fact, accurate then there is something else to mention (for my experiences) Although I'll admit that listening to a pair of Heresy's and then switchout out to a pair of Khorns/Jubilees is a much larger "OMG" experience, I none the less, noticed a very real difference from going from Khorns to Jubilees. Various factors are/were: 1. ES slopes in the Khorns (my opinion, those required more time therefore distance for the sound to meld together into a coherent single wavefront) 2. Jubilees are signal aligned so all the sound is starting at the same bell 3. Jubilees are 2-way rather than 3 way so there is one less component to mix into the wall of sound and this alone might also allow for a quicker melding of the wave front. I do not know if it was the change from a 3 way to a 2 way that did it, the change from a steep slope passive to a signal aligned active that did it BUT... with those said, I can assure you that the qualitive difference between these two experiences in the same corner of the same room with the same electronics was noticable. It was not as dramatic of a change as I said above, from going from Heresy's to Khorns but it was a definate increase in creating more of a "one voice" speaker. Now that I've had the difference, I can see how I was able to discern the height of the Khorn by noticing the sound from the different drivers. This seperation of sound is one thing that went away after 30' (I actually measured). The Khorn became a 'single voice' at this distance. Today, I can be 10' away from the Jubilee's, staring at them, focusing on the sound TRYING to ascertain which half is creating part of the spectrum. All I can usuall come up with is "gee.... it really sounds like all the sound is coming from the center of the speaker" It's darn near impossible for my tin ears to differentiate the different drivers. The "one voice" seems to start at the face of the speaker and unlike my Khorns, doesn't take 30' to gell. I personally attribute the Khorns sound in part, to the ES crossovers which I deduce would require more time (therefore distance) for the sound to mix because they separate the drivers more. I would think a Klipsch "A" crossover would not have the same effect however, it's going to have more over lap so again, we're into tradeoffs. All the above to suggest to anyone reading.... my personal experience was very positive from going to a steep slope passive to a signal aligned active. If there is anyone nearby, we could probably duplicate that with my LaScalas since they still have Al's ES networks in them. Be a chance to hear it for yourself if you wanted. There you go. If you really want to hear the effect of the crossover on all this, do it with your LS. Then the results would be meaningful. Attributing the difference between Khorns and Jubilees to the type of crossover is like eating an apple and an orange, then saying they taste different because one was red and the other was orange colored. #3 on your list of guesses should be number one. Using one driver from what - 800Hz? on up is a big difference. Plus they actually use a high end driver right? The B&C DE-72 or 75? Those are a couple of the best compression drivers available and are in a completely different league than what was used in the Heritage products I'm familiar with. AND... the wave front does not MELD. It's still two wave fronts and they can be manipulated to arrive simultaneously at a given point, but they do not "join together".

oh, then do the same thing with a 3-way...

There is always a plane where the pathlength difference is zero. Not all points fall on that plane, but that doesn't mean the plane doesn't exist... Before you add time-alignment, the plane is centered and normal to the vector between the two points. When you add delay to time-align, the plane tilts so that it cuts through the point where you chose to do the time-alignment. Describing it as being the same when you move horizontally was just an oversimplified way of describing the "real world" In real life, the plane of zero pathlength difference usually ends up tilted a bit... While you'd certainly be able to draw a line where the path lengths remain equal, performing my experiment would demonstrate just how impractical the majority of those locations would be for a listening position relative to a single speaker assembly. Then what happens when you add a second speaker system on the opposite side of the room? Then how many points in space are now time aligned for both assemblies? Disregard the interaction between left and right sides, which time alignment of drivers can't correct. Just consider that curved line of points you're describing and think about how many points of intersection are possible with two speaker assemblies.

Ok, my point here is that time alignment in a home hifi environment using the better Klipsch speakers will provide extremely small improvements, and if you want to start splitting those hairs, the razor blade's going to cut both ways.

It's actually good for more than just a single point in space when all your drivers are stacked such that they're centered above each other. The problem is that when you move your head up and down, the relative difference in distance between the HF and LF changes. If you move side to side, then the relative distance doesn't change...so perfect time-alignment only holds true for a plane level with where you choose to time-align. (snip) Yes it does. Try it. The real world is out there, Mike. Put down the books!!

You don't unite the wave, it's still coming from three different sources. It's not like hot and cold water comig out of the tap as warm water. When electronically time aligning, you're simply trying to get the various sources to arrive together at a specific point in space. You are correct about the goals of time alignment, but it is more difficult to achieve than many think.

Nope. Try this simple experiment: Place something at a fixed point in space. Let's call this the HF driver. Then, place something a couple feet behind and a little below the previous object. This will represent the MF driver. Get yourself some tape and string. Tape one end of the string to the "HF driver" and stretch it forward - you can use your listening distance as the distance if you want a more representative test. Cut it at that length, leaving the end taped to the HF. Repeat this for the "MF driver", cutting the second string so that the end joins together exactly with the first string. The length of these strings represent the source-listener distance for each component. Note that they are different lengths. This is why each freqency band in most speakers require different delay settings when time aligning a speaker system. Now, move from the point (in any direction) where the string ends join together exactly. Those strings' ends are no longer together, and sound would no longer arrive simultaneously from each driver. Sound will propagate at the same speed, but the source-listener distance changes as you move about the listening area. This probably isn't all that significant in a home listening environment, but one could argue that the same holds true for the arrival differences inherent in most speakers with passive networks, especially considering the specifics of the relatively short horn path of the LaScala and the lessened effects of phase cancellation at low frequencies. When you get into a large scale PA situation with subs on the floor and mid/highs flown, the situation is quite different, even around 100Hz.

No offense taken at all, Art. What do you hear that makes you say that, though?

Yeah, if you need a two-way. Those are the ones I was thinking of. There's a nice feature that allows you to control the response around the crossover frequencies. Really, anything decent will allow you to get your feet wet.Big picture? There's a lot of strange logic going on here. Electrostatics? Well, there's a lot more significant differences that the lack of a crossover in that comparison. Time alignment does make a difference. The question is does it make a difference that is noticeable to you and matters to you? Time alignment affects the phase relationship of the two associated frequncy bands, which will in turn affect the frequency response where frequency bands overlap. Steep slopes reduce the number of frequencies with sigificant interaction - Al K has talked quite a bit about this if memeroy serves. One thing to further confuse you is the fact that electronic time alignment is only complete at one point in space. Once the listener or measurement device is relocated from that point, the difference in arrival times changes from the original spot, and the previous calculation is no longer accurate. This is why acoustic/physical alignment is preffered. If you get the acoustic origins aligned in speaker design, less (or no) correction is required. Google away on Synergy or Unity Horn technology, and Tom Danley. This concept is even superior to coax designs.

Want something new to listen to? Tell me what you think of this http://www.skiffleminstrels.com/listen.php I haven't really heard from anyone about how this stuff sounds on nice home system, and I'm curious...

y'know, it might not be the worst idea to start with an analog active crossover when first getting into this stuff. Getting the idea of properly multi-amping is much easier with them and that would avoid the additional mind-bending of learning to use a relatively powerful pro audio device. Pass over the entry level Chinese stuff - they won't sound very good for hifi. Something like Ashly's XR series (I think - their step-up series) sounds much better. If you are in a decent sized town, you could probably rent one from a PA house for very little money to see what you think.

hey guys, I guess I don't have too much to say about the ole hi-fi anymore, but I do miss the good people here. I've been bananas busy playing and recording music the past year - the room in my basement has transitioned from being used primarily for listening to a gear storage and mix room. The old Khorn bins I bought two years ago are still sitting, too. It's kinda sad but I still listen to music constantly (more than when I had a good system together) so I try not to worry about it. I'm still working for Yorkville & spend most of my time dealing with our VTC Pro Audio line array brand. I just got to see a really nice system I designed (I don't engineer the products, but I do get the opportunity to spec systems for customers) installed in a beautifully restored 88 year old theater. 21" subs are cool.

how's everyone? Ben

By definition, 0 dB is a reference. Any measurement expressed in decibels is described by its relationship to this reference level. Whether it's a nominal level (0VU) in an analog mixer or 0dBFS in a digital device, it's the same idea. Of course, this does not mean that you should listen to your system at 0dB on that dial for any particular reason.

Was I the guy in a red devil suit on your shoulder? I took it along to a weekend-long music festival I've been going to for about 12 years now. I got it Tuesday at work, charged the battery that night and packed it away to leave the next day straight from work. The 36 or so hours that transpired following the end of the next work day were somewhat adventure-filled, involving a nearby goat roast, Heineken, Amish coffee (not recommended), more than a few mandolins, Heineken, a red accordian, only one banjo (thank heaven for small mercys), Heineken (or was it bourbon?), and a frattoir that sounded like it was crashing from the hills back at us as. Thursday somehow slipped into Friday and the now-familiar settling in process for the 40 hours of music (among other things) available to us. It wasn't until about 1 am Saturday that I got around to breaking out the Korg. The little thing was really a joy to use and executes commands pretty quickly. I think the pres sound reasonably clean, and played nicely with the Apex 215 ribbons as well as the 460 that just got treated to a couple '58 Bugle Boy ECC82. USB transfer is fast enough and simple as can be. I got around 3-4 hours of music in WSD mode 1-bit and while the recording techniques were not entirely succesful, I can hear what this technology is bringing to the table and it's for real. Multi-track will be phenomenal when it happens. The analog I/O seems to sound really good as well. I'm glad they didn't compromise too much on that. It does add a fair amount to the cost of the unit and this seems to be done well, at least in my limited time with it. 16/44.1 sounds good so far, but I haven't compared it to anything yet. I don't suppose I'll be going to any great lengths to A/B between wav sources, but I'm not hearing anything grungy or objectionable. I do plan to listen carefully to as much as I can of the hi-res material, as it is just very nice to listen to. Dave, I'm going to try to send you a PM or email regarding USB sticks and padded envelopes....

Hey Dave, I'll do what I can to make some audio available. Do you have any way to play back any of the supported 1-bit files? I'm going to try to get some 1-bit material if I can make it work with the 20GB drive. It's a 3-day festival with lots of good music I'll be after.

I'm not usually an "early adopter", but I've been waiting for something like the Korg MR1 to hit the market for a while now. A couple hundred dollar rebate brought it within the realm of sanity, so I just grabbed one here: http://www.musiciansbuy.com/Korg-MR1-1-Bit-Mobile-Recorder-w-FREE-Headphones-Adapter-Korg-MR-1-MR-1-MR1-MR-1-Korg-MR-1-MR1KIT.html In a nutshell, it's got a 20GB hard drive and records and plays back DSD/SACD spec 1 bit, 2.8MHz files, all the way down through the various 24 and 16 bit PCM formats and further down to mp3. Balanced/unbalanced I/O and a mini USB connection for file transfer. I wish it was an >80GB solid state 4-track with Firewire, but it'll be a few years before something like that'll cost less than a grand. I'm doing some location recording this weekend with ribbons and large tube condensers so I'll soon know how the mic pres are. It'll be sweet for better-than-CD portable music. It'll be nice to take vinyl transfers along and it's smaller than my first cell phone... Of course, I'll be needing a big back up drive soon...

Marcus wrote and played pretty much everything except trumpet on Miles Davis' masterpiece (well, one of his masterpieces anyway) Tutu. He's a true M.F. on his instrument and has a unique and very influential style, both musically as an arranger and production-wise. If you like more radio friendly jazz, he's done some work with David Sanborn as well. He's been behind a bunch of pop hits as well as less commercial projects.

Cool, Ben. That looks like a Newcomb amp from sometime in the '50s.Bruce Good eyes. The Vox is American, but still sounds great. It's a Pacemaker. They switched to SS for the model at some point, but this is one of the early tube versions. 2xEL84 with an EZ81 rectifier. Weber 10" loaded. The red box is indeed a Newcomb. It looks like it was a projector speaker from a school or something. It had a light duty blown Alnico 12" in it, which I pulled in favor of a 1958 Jensen P12Q. I run it open backed from the ext out of the Vox right now. It really made the amp open up. I've been toying of going stereo by running my old Traynor Bass Mate YBA-2A head into the Newcomb, via a Lexicon LXP-5 modulation processor... I just have to draw the line somewhere. Or so I've been told!

Well, my hifi is torn apart, waiting for me to get off my butt and put it back together. I've got everything, just need to make up some cables and start trying things out. In the meantime, this is mostly what I'm listening to that excites me:

Pretty funny... I'm not terribly picky about booze, though I do have my preferences. I would, however, rather be sober in a room full of inlaws than drink pretty much any Canadian whisky. That being said, I would rather drink a quart of warm Crown Royal in the morning than revisit any of the Crown amps I've heard in a non-PA setting. I have no opinion on tennis shoes.

btw, I agree that a 1200 would be a good set up for the vinyl-curious. I always liked analog, but my first deck on a reasonably good system was a Dual (1256, I think). Decent, low-muss, low-fuss and good enough to lead me to move on to better things. Everyone has their sweet spot of turntable hassle/performace factor. And then there's price...

Agreed. I know there's better out there, but the Scout dusts the 1200s that I've heard. Of course, I wouldn't recommend a Scout for a first timer. The uni-pivot set up requires some motivation and patience. Once it's done, it's done, but it's not as easy as the Technics I'm sure. To each their own, YMMV, etc...

This issue is not so simple as just truning it down, and hearing is not the only sense involved. Bass at concert levels stimulates our nervous system and makes it just plain feel good. The problem isn't high SPL in most cases. It's distortion. Poorly designed equipment and poorly trained operators are the problem. The results of a recent line array demo illustrate the issue. Hearing ours first, the company said it sounded great, but that the systemsthey already own 100 boxes of get louder. So they proceeded to an A/B, where they said it wasn't as big a difference as they thought, but theirs were still a little louder. Then our rep broke out a good SPL meter. Ours was 5-6dB louder, but was much easier to listen to. Ours are 2x1" comp drivers firing into a new wave shaper called the Paraline Lens, with 2x10" that are Synergy horn loaded. The subs are a 2x12" tapped horn. The competition used a ribbon HF with 2x12" direct radiators and a 2x15" sub. Hearing our rig reminded me of the first time I fired up Klipschorns. My wife got home a couple minutes after I started and she walked in to see what was going on. I didn't think it was that loud until I saw her mouth moving and couldn't hear a thing she was saying. Removing distortion is essential to enjoyable high SPL experiences. This doesn't discount the importance of hearing protection to mitigate or prevent damage, though... I do agree with the differences you guys point out between amplified and acoustic experiences, but there is no going back for many styles of music. The live experience requires high levels to come across in the way the artists intend. I would guess that Bruce Cockburn doesn't keep it below 90dB or anything like that. When I saw him in Buffalo in Niagara Square, it was as loud as anyone, but his engineer did do a good job dealing with the somewhat tired old trap-box rig being used. Nearly all acts with any resources travel with their own FOH engineer.