Bi-Amp Wiring

[palbert]

Hello everyone,

I am new here and this is my first post. I have recently purchased a pair of WF-34s and plan on bi-amping them with a Denon 3808CI. I have scoured the internet forums on the subject and I am still slightly confused about the wiring.

My question is; when using the front & left channels and the surround back front & left channels to supply power to the two front speakers, do I need to keep the front and left wiring the same? I assume I do, but I have seen many diagrams online that show the wires from both front channels connected to the one speaker and both surr. back channels connected to the other.

So again, I assume that the front left channel connects to the left speaker (bottom posts) and the surround back left channel also connects to the left speaker (top posts). And vice versa for the right side.

Does this sound correct? Is there one preferred method over another when considering one AVR?

Thank you and any advice would be appreciated.

[Coytee]

I'm not familar with the WF34's so I don't know.

That said...when you biamp (in the truest form) you want to take the signal out of your preamp (or AVR I suppose) and put that signal into an active crossover which will split your signal into say... 0-500hz and 500-infinity hz. You then hook an amp up to each lead and from there, take each (now amplified) lead to its respective HF or LF section.

Is that what you're planning on doing, or are you going to take what is essentially two full signal "fronts" to each speaker, such that each speaker (without the crossover being changed) has a full signal, amplified wire hooked to HF terminals and a full signal amplified wire hooked to LF terminals? (I'm presuming the speaker allows for 2 inputs)

If this is the case, then IMHO, you are not garnering the most bang for your buck, regarding biamping.

I'm sure others will chime in here.

Any way you can post a picture of the back of your speakers ?

[palbert]

Hmm, that's interesting. Thanks for the reply, but I have not come across any info in my manuals on placing crossovers in between the speakers and the AVR. Though I know that doesn't mean squat. The Denon 3808ci allows the surround back channels to be used for the front speakers and even calls it "bi-amping," yet there is no mention of a crossover. And the WF-34's also have two sets of wire posts in the back.

Is it possible that the design of the wf-34s allows for the direct wiring from the AVR?

I found this photo online. My speaks are actually the espresso color. I will try to get those pics up when my WS-24s, WC-24, and XW-300D come in.

[RockOn4Klipsch]

i'm not sure on the dennon but read your user manual for proper setup, if your reciever doesn't support bi-amping don't hook the surr backs to your front speakers. If it does support it follow directions.

I'm having trouble pulling up the user manual so i'm not sure what set of binding posts are for High Frequency and Which Binding posts are for Low Frequency. There we go, I've takin a quick look ath the user manual and don't see any info regarding bi-amping. If you point out a pager number I'll take a look at it and let you know. But from my brief look i didn't see anything.

[RockOn4Klipsch]

found it but i still don't see any reference to which channel is dedicated for HF and LF. Maybe it doesn't matter as it sends Full Range to both channels. If you can determine which channels are for HF and LF take the HF channel and hook it to the HF section on the Speaker and do the Same for the LF section.

For example on the receiver the FL and FR are Low Frequency ( for the sake of the example) and the SurrBack L and SurrBac R are High Frequency. Take the Jumpers off of the speakers, and take the Red FL (from receiver) and hook it to the Red terminal on the speaker noted by LF (low frequency)and then take the Black from the reciever and hook it to the black LF on the speaker. Do the same thing for the High Freqeuncy section on the left speaker, then do the same thing for the FR (Front Right) Channel

[palbert]

Here is the link to the manual: http://www.usa.denon.com/AVR-3808CI-OM-E_200.pdf

The Bi-amp setting is on page 70 in the multi-zone section. It doesn't say, but I think the surround back channels are for the high frequency.

Why are my sentences all bunched up in these posts?

[Coytee]

I assume that the front left channel connects to the left speaker (bottom posts) and the surround back left channel also connects to the left speaker (top posts). And vice versa for the right side. Does this sound correct?

I'm still a bit confused, in part because I'm a simple 2-channel person and this other stuff isn't something I'm experienced in.

So, with that said... this is what I'm hearing you ask, am I correct?

Your Denon has let's say, 4 channels of output. Front left, front right, rear left and rear right.

You are asking if "biamping" is taking the front left to the (example) upper post of your left front speaker and the rear left from the Denon, to the LOWER post of your left front speaker?

If so, how are you dealing with the probability that the front and rear channels MIGHT have different sources playing at the same time? Or, can your Denon, allow you to redirect the signal, such that the rear left and the front left are the SAME signal??

If I'm catching what you're trying to do... I'd say, not only is it NOT "biamping" in the true sense of the word, but it might give you weird results by having different outputs playing on the same speaker.

So, to reiterate... if you want to biamp and do it properly.... then you would first, ascertain if your speakers allow you to remove those straps on the inputs and send a divided signal to them (I think it's reasonable that the answer would be yes?)

Then, you'd take your front left output, send it to an active crossover which will split it into TWO signals, one HF and one LF and you will then take these two parts of the signal and feed them into their OWN individual amp (stereo or mono) and then connect that amp to the speaker inputs. This is where the term "bi amp" (as in two) comes into play....using two amps for the one speaker. Triamp is three amps on one speaker

There are other versions of "biamping", often called "fools biamping". I'm not terribly well versed in those but usually, as I understand it... you'd take that strap off your speaker and take your signal from your Denon's amp and put TWO speaker wires onto it (two sets of speaker wires for ONE speaker). You would take one lead and put it to the lower posts and the other lead to the top posts. You are essentially, feeding each set of speaker posts, the SAME full signal, as sent by your amp/Denon. Some people claim they hear this & that. Others call it fools biamping. Call it what you will...

If you want to do "true" biamping, then you need TWO amps for each speaker and an active crossover ahead of each amp to split the signal into LF and HF signals for each amp.

Now... here's a twist.

I've got an old Yamaha AVR and if I recall correctly (been years since I've looked at backside of it)... each channel on it has a line out and a main in. I could in theory, take the front mains line out, put a splitter on them and patch them into front mains main in as well as the REAR's main in. I would then have the same signal coming out of each internal amplifier as though I had TWO sets of front main speakers. I still have the problem of a full spectrum signal being sent out from the amplifier but be it as it may... you could do this and send one to the LF input and one to the HF input. At least, this way, you'd have the proper front signal going to the speaker HF and LF inputs and ....maybe divide the workload between two amps but the speaker inputs are both STILL getting a full signal which sort of defeats the purpose of biamping. (do you really want to send your LF signals to your tweeter and risk blowing them out?)

and what else...

heck...

Seems like an aweful lot of work to try to gain something (what ARE you trying to gain?) and even if you did do this...you'd STILL not get the TRUE benefits of biamping.

[palbert]

Coyotee, to answer your first question, yes you are correct in hearing me right. And to answer the second question, yes my denon does allow a "bi-amp" capability. Whether or not this is the true meaning of bi-amp I am not sure. So, if the AVR allows it and the speakers are set up for it, then it could be done...right?

[Islander]

Seems like an aweful lot of work to try to gain something (what ARE you trying to gain?) and even if you did do this...you'd STILL not get the TRUE benefits of biamping.

He's talking about passive bi-amping, using the speakers' existing crossovers. Some speakers have connections to do this easily, and two separate amps would ideally be used, but lately people with AV amps seem to be connecting unused channels to the main speakers.

It's not active bi-amping, like you and I are familiar with, and won't have the same benefits, but there may be some improvement in available power. Some forum members who have tried it seem to like it.

At least it makes more sense than bi-wiring.

[palbert]

That's it...you understand me! All of these terms are still new to me, but I am quickly learning.

[Coytee]

I looked at that page...

Here's something I'd try to help figure out exactly what's going on...

I'd hook my speakers up to the main outputs and make sure they sound fine (they evidently, already do)

I'd then, hook them up to the rear outputs, used for biamping (without changing ANYTHING else) and see if the rear outputs sound identical to the main outputs.

I'd bet they do

If in fact, they do, then you're evidently getting the same signal to both... now you have a known starting point.

Does this unit allow you to internally divide the signal to the outputs? (if no, you're screwed in my book, if so...what are your choices?)

If it DOES allow you to divide the signal spectrum, then you might be able to pull this off without an active in the system.

If it does NOT allow you to divide the signal spectrum to HF and LF signals, then in my opinion, you're simply wasting some time & effort for perhaps an incremental gain. You would also potentially, be risking your tweeters if they are being sent the full spectrum of sound....especially, if you crank it up. Then again, maybe something about the way these are built (remember, I'm not familar with your speakers) might prevent that.

I'd want to play around with it some, but I don't think it's going to give you biamping, in the true sense of the word. You might like what it does though.

[Coytee]

That's it...you understand me!

That just goes to show you he's the smart one in the family and I'm the dummy! []

[palbert]

No Coyote, that does help. I would hate to lose these beauties by wiring them incorrectly. I'm contacting klipsch support for a bit more info.

[Coytee]

Oh...and welcome to the forum! Don't be a stranger.

[palbert]

Thanks for the warm welcome....I just got off the phone with tech support.

What I am trying to achieve is passive bi-amping and it seems I am making it out to be more difficult than it actually is. All signals from the AVR are going to be the same when I set the AVR to the "bi-amp" setting and the internal crossovers in the wf-34s will sort out the mess. I don't have to worry about blowing out my tweeters. Now...let's hope it makes a difference.

[TBrennan]

Passive bi-amping and fool's bi-amping. Note the difference; passive bi-amping is just like active except that passive rather than active filters are used between the preamp and amplifiers.

[Coytee]

Say Tom...those speakers sure do look like chainsaws.... [6]