snilsen13 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 So, I thought I was a through and through vinylphile, but I recently upgraded my digital and my amp (modified LK-72) to the following and now I can't get over how great it sounds: iMac > digital out > EAD DSP-7000 mk2 > Scott LK-72 On the analog end I had a great set up (I thought) AT 440 MLa / SME 3009 / Thorens TD160S My records sound hollow and tinny by comparison. They do sound good, but they aren't as astoundingly better than digital as they used to be. My first thought is to try a different cart (I've ordered a Denon 160)... argh. The phono section of the amp has all new parts Hovland and Auricaps. Considering how good the digital path sounds I'm afraid of how much I may spend to upgrade my analog path and begin listening to all my records again! And, no, I don't plan to sell the collection or give up on analog. What I want to know is if I'm headed in the right direction with the cart change or if I should be rethinking that upgrade path. Thanks! -Steven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Those results are not surprising to me. Properly done, digital easily exceeds vinyl in performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Those results are not surprising to me. Properly done, digital easily exceeds vinyl in performance. Don't you have that backward? [] Seriously, differences between vinyl and digital are not absolutely in favor of one or the other. While nicely done vinyl will usually beat digital, it can come down to choice and spending on equipment, and sonically equivalent (pros broadly balance the cons) digital tends to cost more from what I've seen.I jockeyed back and forth between choices and upgrades until my LP (Basis, Transfiguration cart, Towshend Sink) and CD systems (2-box Wadia w/GNSC mods, Townshend Sink for the transport) finally sounded equal enough that I can put on either without wincing. Overall, my LP setup sounds better to me. My $0.02, YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 No doubt that if your TT sounds "tinny and hollow" there is a problem. My setup is no where near your class and it's anything but "tinny and hollow." I don't do the digital/analog debate as it's dumb (ever hear a digital trumpet? It all starts out analog and arrives as analog), but properly set up neither should sound anything but superb. It's troubleshooting time... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snilsen13 Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 "Tinny and hollow" relative to digital. Certainly, horns, bass and strings still sound more detailed on analog, but the high end isn't as silky or ear pleasing as the upgraded digital (diagnosis: time for a new needle? doesn't make sense, there's no sibilance or other associated symptoms). In fact, there seems to be a general problem with depth and soundstage accuracy that may be contributing to an unpleasant "hollow" sound (diagnosis: probably everything to do with the tinniness). My conclusion is my cart is known for being tinny in some systems and may be the culprit. Can anybody back me up or suggest any other possible sources for concern? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I don't know if that upper-middle-class model of AT is weak or not, but I don't hear much about Audio Technia except as a cheap cart, and I see plenty of cheap models in the line. I myself would want a cart that is more up to the level the SME arm and Thorens table. Shure M-97xe is a very popular item and most definitely a "shure" thing. To me, it has always seemed a little too perfect and a bit laid back, so I would be a little more inclined to one of the Ortofon models if I were in the market for a MM (moving magnet). More of a moving-coil guy, myself -- But, as another poster said above, it may be trouble-shooting time before you start warming up your wallet plastic. I suggest you look very carefully at the cantilever (remove the headshell or use a mirror) to make sure it's not bent. If it is, REPLACE either the needle or the cartridge! It takes very little misalignment to make even a fine cart sound very tinny. I suggest you take a look at this document: http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm. Although all the steps are critical, one of the most important IMO is to align the cantilever (or cartridge body, as a fallback) with the grooves of a protractor, to assure your stylus is tracking parallel to the groove at the point of contact: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snilsen13 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 This may had been a nobrain experiment to do before I wrote the board, but I didn't think it would be worth it, until I read Larry's post. So, I bregudgingly unpacked my Shure V15V, which I had concluded needed a new needle, and I am trying it out. So far, it's a substantially less tinny or hollow sounding to my ears and maybe it never needed a new needle after all, I'm not detecting any graininess in the cymbols, they sound rightous. This all makes sense, since the V15 has such even frequency balance. Still, a warmer sound might be just the thing, so I look forward to hearing the Denon I orderd. Thanks for the feedback Klipsch forum. A different cart is what I need/needed. Digital is still surprisingly less expensive to get right than I had previously thought, in fact potentially cheaper than analog if you've got a good digital output on your computer. Here's my tip to the board: the EAD DSP-7000 mk2 (or mk3 I suppose) is a great sounding DAC, with excellent build quality. At one point I saw 3 of them at once on Audiogon. -Steven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Do you have a link to the EAD website? Google doesn't seem to be bringing it up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Mobile Fidelity recently released Roy Orbison on both Gold CD and 180g LP. Reviewers say the LP absolutely smokes the CD. "...greater ambience, width, depth, detail, tonal and textural richness, and wider dynamics. Most importantly it breathes with life. By comparison the CD sounds flat." Absolute Sound. "Wider dynamics"? How can one cause dynamics to be "wider". Sounds like audiophile glossolalia to me. "It breathes with life"? Isn't that a line from a Frankenstien movie? This audiophile gibberish is really amusing. Reminds me of the time 40 years ago when a doctor moved next door to me in the apartment complex where I was living. He was recently divorced, and had just spent $100K furnishing and equipping his batchelor pad. His was the first VCR I had ever seen in a home setting - a Sony 2 inch pro unit, the same one that the TV stations were using. One day when I got home from work I saw a truck from the local hi-fi emporium bringing equipment up to his place. I went over just as they were finishing installing his new stereo - BoSe 901s driven by a Phase Linear 700 watt amp. The doctor remarked to the installer that I had a pretty good sounding stereo, but when the installer, who was also their salesman, found out I had Khorns he began his litany of BS, even saying that the BoSe were more efficient than Khorns! I tried to talk some sense into him to no avail. I then announced that I would give a demonstration of efficiency, whereupon I went next door to my place, turned on my Stereo 70, and and cranked E. Power Biggs up to about 120 dB. I came out of my apartment, locked my door, and as I walked past them on the way to my car I remarked, "That's 35 watts per channel". When I got back from my beer run I was expecting my new neighbor to be upset with me, but as I was parking I noticed the installer was putting the equipment he had just installed back into his truck. When I passed my neighbor's door he came out and asked where he could buy some speakers like mine. He said my speakers sounded better through the wall better than the BoSe did inside his room! I understand that the people at TAS are trying to say something, but I don't know what. Neither do they, apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 When I got back from my beer run I was expecting my new neighbor to be upset with me, but as I was parking I noticed the installer was putting the equipment he had just installed back into his truck. When I passed my neighbor's door he came out and asked where he could buy some speakers like mine. He said my speakers sounded better through the wall better than the BoSe did inside his room! Your story brings to mind an interesting point. Your neighbor had never heard a properly set up hi-fi until that time, and it obviously had an affect on him. He was quite happy with his Bose and Carver designed amp until he heard something better. Had he not heard your system, he may have loved those Bose for a long time and not known any better or different. Don, I can't help but feel that your position that professional reviewers and audiophiles that speak "audiophile gibberish" is coming from a similar perspective. "It breathes with life" is exactly how I would describe some of my LPs compared with their digital counterparts. I see no problem waxing poetic about the very small subtle details that audio geeks like us love to compare and contrast. Your pessimistic view about high end cables seems to sprout from a similar place. Either you've never heard a system that "breathes with life", and is capable of the small details that show the subtle differences between say... cables [], or those subtle details just don't matter to you. In any case, I'd ask for a little understanding for the geeks like myself who love to read and write about the smallest of details. A little more respect for the audio press might be in order too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon summit Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 No doubt that if your TT sounds "tinny and hollow" there is a problem. My setup is no where near your class and it's anything but "tinny and hollow." I don't do the digital/analog debate as it's dumb (ever hear a digital trumpet? It all starts out analog and arrives as analog), but properly set up neither should sound anything but superb. It's troubleshooting time... Dave digital trumpet... surprised they don't make instruments that put out some sort of digital feed right to the studio equipment when recording. Someone smarter than me might be able to put that idea to use and make millions!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 digital trumpet... surprised they don't make instruments that put out some sort of digital feed right to the studio equipment when recording. Someone smarter than me might be able to put that idea to use and make millions!!!! There are devices for guitarists that convert electric guitar to MIDI, and I think there are similar units available for other string and wind instruments... but I'd rather listen to an analog instrument. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 There are many instruments that output digital audio (and I'm not talking MIDI either). However, I will mention that MIDI done right can sometimes be better than the real thing....the problem is taking the time to do it right. As an example, I know of one MIDI controller with a grand piano setting that will smoke 99% of the grand pianos out there....and I've listened to dozens of pianos that are extolled to no end and then a few others that actually sound amazing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 There are many instruments that output digital audio (and I'm not talking MIDI either). However, I will mention that MIDI done right can sometimes be better than the real thing....the problem is taking the time to do it right. As an example, I know of one MIDI controller with a grand piano setting that will smoke 99% of the grand pianos out there....and I've listened to dozens of pianos that are extolled to no end and then a few others that actually sound amazing.... I agree that digital piano can sound very good, but I still prefer a real piano. For guitars, to me there is no comparison as I've never heard anything digital that can sound remotely close to an electric guitar plugged into a tube amp. But then tube amps cannot be duplicated in the audio world either, and it's definitely not from a lack of trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 There are many instruments that output digital audio (and I'm not talking MIDI either). However, I will mention that MIDI done right can sometimes be better than the real thing....the problem is taking the time to do it right. As an example, I know of one MIDI controller with a grand piano setting that will smoke 99% of the grand pianos out there....and I've listened to dozens of pianos that are extolled to no end and then a few others that actually sound amazing.... What is the source of the samples? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 "I don't do the digital/analog debate as it's dumb (ever hear a digital trumpet? It all starts out analog and arrives as analog)" Analog is a representation of what the trumpet plays, it is not the same thing. That is the very definition of analog. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I know of one MIDI controller with a grand piano setting that will smoke 99% of the grand pianos out there....and I've listened to dozens of pianos that are extolled to no end and then a few others that actually sound amazing.... As far as recordings of pianos go, I've heard both good and bad recordings of real pianos as well as synthesized pianos. The worst piano I have ever heard recorded was a Stereophile recording of a solo piano, a purist effort with John Atkinson and Robert Harley listed as engineers. The sound was muffled to the extent that it appeared to have been miced from a distance, yet the stereo perspective was very wide, as if the mics were placed inside the instrument. The only conclusion I could reach was that they forgot to remove the mics from their cases! Attention Dave Mallette: I still have this CD. If you would like to evaluate it, PM me with your shipping address. I would be interested in hearing your opinion of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Shawn, I understand what you said, but I didn't get your point. Certainly an LP is analog all they way. However, it is still several layers of abstraction from the trumpet. A digital recording of a trumpet is also an abstraction layer. In any recording, the issue is how much does the playback differ from the original. Of course, we don't have transporters now, but if one were invented it would certainly be digital in nature. The question would be is that Spock or not? However, it may be that I've just responded to a point you didn't make..[] Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I see no problem waxing poetic about the very small subtle details that audio geeks like us love to compare and contrast. "Waxing poetic" would be a good technique for describing music performances. When applied to technical matters it sounds silly to me. Your pessimistic view about high end cables seems to sprout from a similar place. My pessimistic view of high-end cables actually was developed due to 4 years of Electrical Engineering training and 49 years of experience and on-the-job training in the field. I'd ask for a little understanding for the geeks like myself who love to read and write about the smallest of details. A little more respect for the audio press might be in order too. One can enjoy music from many different perspectives. I fully understand, and applaud those who enjoy music from any perspective. However, whoever in the audio press that wrote that a vinyl version of a Roy Orbison recording has "wider dynamics" than the CD version isn't going to get any respect from me. Besides the fact that there is no such thing as "wider dynamics", a CD has about twice the dynamic range of vinyl, 96 dB vs 50 dB. Anyone can have an opinion and anyone has the right to express that opinion. However, matters of fact are not opinions. Facts are definite, opinions are not. Confusing the two doesn't lead to greater understanding, only to [bs] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 In my years on this forum I've really come to understand a couple of things: 1. Audiophiles tend to not understand that the quality of the source material is by far the most critical component in their systems. 2. There are two distinct types of audiophile. Those who primarily listen to equipment, and those who primarily listen to music. As to 1, I have always said I prefer a quality recording on a boom box to crap on a $$$$$$$$$$$ equipment. True quality, from performance to the release medium, is quite rare. What I might refer to as "adequate," is the norm. Poor performance is going to sound the same on any system, the issues on an adequate recording will become more egregious as the quality of the system increases, top quality recordings are going to sound great on anything that can convert them to sound (at least to a music-oriented listener). As to 2, I can tell before the system is turned on which type of audiophile I am meeting. If the CD player is connected with the cables that came in the box, you can bet the person is music oriented. The two groups are virtually incapable of comprehending each other and this unrecognized difference in perception is usually responsible for the nastiest cat fights in this group. Being of near equal left/right brain function, I like both types. I fall a bit more into the music listener type, but I understand the gear head and often learn important things from them. However, I will not step between them. Wouldn't be prudent. As to analog vs. digital, the same judgement applies as I do to to any music reproduction: 1. To the extent you can determine which it is, one of them is inaccurate. 2. Both are inherently capable of perfect reproduction, the extent to which they fail or succeed is an engineering issue. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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