Receiver? Pre/Pro? Amps? Seperates? What's What?

[JohnWB]

[D]Hi All,

Everyone has been extremely helpful answering other questions I have had and also helped me find a pair of RF-3's, RS-3's and a RC-3. I want to start upgrading my HT from an old HK AVR-85 to seperates (because that's the way to go. i guess) and with all the equipment out there it's downright confusing. My current receiver does it all and I am not getting the surround audio i want from my system, is it asking alot for that receiver to power 5 speakers and a small 10" sub? I think yes. i am assuming I need amplification with any pre-amp/processor? Is that correct? I am also assuming that i will need 5-6 channels of amplification for all the speakers, right? If this is all correct, do you get one 5 channel amp to power the surround speakers and another for the sub? Or do you get three 2 channel amps? I was looking on Audiogon and some of these amps and processors are dang expensive. Does anyone have a recommendation of how to go about this without breaking the bank or what to buy first to get started? All this because my receiver no longer works with the remote and i hate getting up to adjust the volume. OY!!!

[Oblio]

Most subs have their own amp and only require a low level input (which comes from the pre/pro) or they take a VERY small amount from the speaker. Most subs have both inputs available.

I'm looking at the Emotiva line, seems to have lots of bang/buck on their separates.($800 gets you 200 w/ch x5)

[Oblio]

I think yes. i am assuming I need amplification with any pre-amp/processor? Is that correct? I am also assuming that i will need 5-6 channels of amplification for all the speakers, right? If this is all correct, do you get one 5 channel amp to power the surround speakers and another for the sub? Or do you get three 2 channel amps?

You will need an amp for each (non-sub) channel, in your case 5. Some will argue the merits of separate amps, mostly because comprimises are made when building a multichannel amp, usually for budgetary reasons. There are also cost savings in that they share a common chassis and power supply (this is a performace issue at times) etc. If you wanted separates I would look for a decent 5 ch amplifier, you can always trade up later to a 2 + 3 config. YMMV

[JohnWB]

OK. So the subs don't need an amp and it looks like a 5 channel would suffice, but the 2 channel and 3 channel would be the best? Are there certain features I should be looking for ina pre/pro?

[Oblio]

OK. So the subs don't need an amp and it looks like a 5 channel would suffice, but the 2 channel and 3 channel would be the best? Are there certain features I should be looking for ina pre/pro?

You could always go for 5 monoblocks (single chassis amp). [H]

FWIW I'm looking at going with the Emotiva 5 ch, and this will be driving Klipschorns & Heresys, possibly La Scalas at a later time. I'm pretty sure it would be just fine with your speaker setup.

I'm kinda new to H/T so I can't comment on the pre/pro selection criteria too much. I'll let the other gurus here fill in those blanks.

[SuBXeRo]

Component style is a good way to go because each components does a task and that is always better because those components are designed for that and are generally better at what they do. If something breaks, no issue, the whole thing doesnt need to be replaced, just that component. You have jack of all trade equipments like receivers which are awesome alot of the time but lack in power output as well as other things. You can spend the same on components as you can a single receiver but when you do component style you have way more options.

Powered subs are most common for home use since most of them drive high wattage subs which most receivers can't push let alone finding a good high wattage amp to push them isnt an easy deal. You will notice that there are suv outs on your receiver, that is just what its there for, sub out for a signal.

There is alot of crap about how many channels to have, in most cases, 5 is all you need and now with new options, 7,9,11 are the new channel options. & channel is becomming more common but most audio formats on dvd/bluray are still 5 channel and then the receiver/processor can decode it further to make those extra channels. 7 channel is becomming standard and there is nothing wrong with it.

Good preamp/processors will give you the otpion of setups as in 5 or 7 which is most standard provided the receiver can do 7 channels, but it should also give you the option of 2.1 and 3.1 as well.

Check out www.outlawaudio.com i have been peeping their stuff for a while and have always heard great things about their amps. You can get a 7 channel 7X125 for about 1000 bux and the 7X75 for 699. They also have preamp processors which are awesome because they release firmware upgrades via the internet to upgrade your firmware.

Its good to have alot of power because you dont want to underdrive them which can cause clipping. In most cases, a high quality amp will do just fun. I like to run any of my audio with the minimum recommended RMS but i always take into consideration its peak power as well. Klipsch speakers usually have good sensitivities, especially on their towers which makes them more efficient.

[Oblio]

Good preamp/processors will give you the otpion of setups as in 5 or 7 which is most standard provided the receiver can do 7 channels, but it should also give you the option of 2.1 and 3.1 as well.

Check out www.outlawaudio.com i have been peeping their stuff for a while and have always heard great things about their amps. You can get a 7 channel 7X125 for about 1000 bux and the 7X75 for 699. They also have preamp processors which are awesome because they release firmware upgrades via the internet to upgrade your firmware.

I was thinking of getting a UMC-1 from Emotiva but I'm wondering if it will ever come out, how are the Outlaw pre/pros ? I hate to buy a stopgap unit and would like a 'matched' setup of pre/pro and amps if there are no compelling reasons to mix/match but my old 'junk' Kenwood AV receiver is sounding a bit thin ....

[SuBXeRo]

i dont have any experience with them, i did do some research on them though and i did find some mixed reviews. I didnt find any that said the units went bad and stuff like that, just more so along the lines of software issues on some stuff. I did this research over a year ago and with these newer models out, im sure they have addressed those issues. Outlaw is know for making high quality equipment and i believe they offer a 30 day money back garuntee, you just have to pay the shipping back and a small restocking fee i think. They are internet only, no brick and mortar store, this helps their prices but leaves you taking a chance. I would buy them in a heartbeat. and like i said, they offer firmware updates too from time to time!

[Oblio]

If they have firmware updates S/W issues are not as much of an issue. I like the 30 day return policy, I think Emotiva has the same. I am thinking of springing for a sub prior to all this. KHorn bass is good for 2 ch but running HT leaves the low end lacking unless I run in Stereo mode.

[JohnWB]

Thanks for all the info. I was actually looking at some Outlaw gear on Audiogon but I would hate to get something froma site like that and have it not work. I don't plan on expanding from 5.1 anytime soon so a 5 channel amp would do the job. I never thought of 5 monoblock amps, I'm guessing that one would need a ton of space to have these. Whats the difference with Tube, Solid State and Multi with the amps and preamps? I notice the tubes are alot more coin. I gues I should focus on getting the amp first, I could then incorporate that into my current system and then grow from there.

[Arky]

how are the Outlaw pre/pros ?

I've owned the 990 since it came out. Very nice product. No issues & yeah they send out FW updates occasionally; never felt the need to do it though.

[JohnWB]

I think I might go that Outlaw route. I checked into my fronts (RF-3's)and they say the impedence is 8ohms. Does this mean they are efficient and do not need the amount of power as something thats 4 ohms? This is all new to me.

[Oblio]

I think I might go that Outlaw route. I checked into my fronts (RF-3's)and they say the impedence is 8ohms. Does this mean they are efficient and do not need the amount of power as something thats 4 ohms? This is all new to me.

The impedence does not directly determine the efficiency but rather determines what power (and how well) your amp can deliver to the load. The efficiency of RF-3 is 98dB @ 1watt/1meter which is pretty good.

[SuBXeRo]

let us know how the outlaw shtuff works out, def curious to hear your opinion on things.

To elaborate more on the impedence, impedence can be looked at as how efficient they are as well since its a measure of resistance, the less resistance, the more efficient it is. Now, dont confuse that with the sensitivity, sensitivty is how well the speakers utilize the power given to them regardless of impendence. Every 3 db increase in sensitivity requires half the power to reach the same volume output, hence why these speakers perform as well as they do. If those speakers had been 95db, it would require twice the rms power that is suggested. Correct me if i am wrong anyone, but i am almost positive that that is correct. Amps alot of the time can accomodate a spread of impedences, typically a receiver will do around 8-16ohms but is dependent on the type you buy, others will go down as low as 6ohm, this is common in the onkyo models as some of their speakers are 6 ohms. In the other, more high quality amps, you can get those impedences down to 4 ohm's. The range is good because at times, it can allow you different wiring combinations, this becomes a lot more prevalent in the car audio industry as you encounter DVC and SVC speakers as far as subs and the amps also can have stabilities down to 1 ohm and some down to .5 ohm. This is just to give you more an idea of whats out there, i hope i helped and give you a bit of an interesting read . I am very much a car audio guy and what not so i have learned these over the 5-6 years i have been driving.

[Saturn5]

I've got an Outlaw 970 pre/pro with the Outlaw 7500 amp driving RF-7, RC-7 stage and RS-62 surround speakers. They positively rock. The amp is rated at 200 W/ch, and I cannot get anywhere close to taxing the amp before it feels like I'm going to blow the windows out. Great sound at low volumes with lots of detail, and it just gets bigger and bigger as the volume goes up.

I don't have Blu-Ray at the moment, but when I get one, I'll be able to use the 7.1 analog inputs on the 970 until I upgrade to the new Outlaw 997 after it's released.

Outlaw and Klipsch is a potent combination.

[JohnWB]

I will definately return and give you guys my novice opinion when I get all my gear, it might take a little time but I think I know what i want now which is more than 1/2 the battle.

[JohnWB]

Thanks for the input, do you think you could've gotten away with the Model 7075 or 7125 instead of the 200 watt 7500? Is there more flexability with having more watts than needed?

[psg]

FWIW I'm looking at going with the Emotiva 5 ch, and this will be driving Klipschorns & Heresys, possibly La Scalas at a later time. I'm pretty sure it would be just fine with your speaker setup.

Not to throw a wet blanket over your enthousiasm, and I am sure other will disagree with me, but on that setup you are probably watching movies at around -17 dB on your volume dial (if your 0 dB corresponds to max, rather than reset by something like Audyssey). If so, you are using something like 1 Watt per channel. Will an outboard amp really help? These speakers don't have wild impedance curves for the amp to deal with.

[Oblio]

FWIW I'm looking at going with the Emotiva 5 ch, and this will be driving Klipschorns & Heresys, possibly La Scalas at a later time. I'm pretty sure it would be just fine with your speaker setup.

Not to throw a wet blanket over your enthousiasm, and I am sure other will disagree with me, but on that setup you are probably watching movies at around -17 dB on your volume dial (if your 0 dB corresponds to max, rather than reset by something like Audyssey). If so, you are using something like 1 Watt per channel. Will an outboard amp really help? These speakers don't have wild impedance curves for the amp to deal with.

I'll agree that a outboard amp probably won't make any discernable difference, but I've always wanted a separates system, IOW most of it is the toy factor. That is part of the reason why I'm looking at getting a sub first.

BTW, what is 0 dB referenced to on AV receivers. Being an engineer (and dealing daily in things like dBm, dBi) I find it frustrating to see a 'meaningless' -17 dB on a display. FTR I find -17 on my 75 wpc Kenwood AVR to be quite loud. Is this -17 dB down from 75 Watts ?

[psg]

FWIW I'm looking at going with the Emotiva 5 ch, and this will be driving Klipschorns & Heresys, possibly La Scalas at a later time. I'm pretty sure it would be just fine with your speaker setup.

Not to throw a wet blanket over your enthousiasm, and I am sure other will disagree with me, but on that setup you are probably watching movies at around -17 dB on your volume dial (if your 0 dB corresponds to max, rather than reset by something like Audyssey). If so, you are using something like 1 Watt per channel. Will an outboard amp really help? These speakers don't have wild impedance curves for the amp to deal with.

I'll agree that a outboard amp probably won't make any discernable difference, but I've always wanted a separates system, IOW most of it is the toy factor. That is part of the reason why I'm looking at getting a sub first.

BTW, what is 0 dB referenced to on AV receivers. Being an engineer (and dealing daily in things like dBm, dBi) I find it frustrating to see a 'meaningless' -17 dB on a display. FTR I find -17 on my 75 wpc Kenwood AVR to be quite loud. Is this -17 dB down from 75 Watts ?

Okay with the toy factor. I have amps for the same reason, and to very occasionnaly crank a drum track.

The sub will definately make a huge difference. You might even consider dropping your amp budget in it too! LFE content on action movies is just amazing on a good sub. I am comtemplating an eventual tapped horn sub. Since everything else is horn-loaded, so why not the sub!

As for 0 dB, yes, that often corresponds to max output given a maxed input. Volume dials often go to +15 dB to allow playing something that is under-recorded at maximum output. So -17 dB down from 75W is 1.5W, and those are peaks! Doesn't take much, does it?

On THX and Audyssey receivers, calibration involves a microphone used for automatic calibration (level between speakers, delay, sometimes room EQ and overall level). On these, calibration of the overall level is set suich that 0 dB corresponds to THX theater reference (i.e. the playback level in movie theaters). People tend to playback at a level lower than this, since that is prett loud when there is no crowd to make background noises.

I have a degree in physics engineering, so I get you.