Guest David H Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Greg, I can't beleive it....are you coming over to the dark side?! If you want to try something really cool with the DCX and setup a crossover that will blow you away, follow the instructions on this link and set your crossover up that way. The sound is really amazing. I currently have this setup in my tri-amp Khorns and am still tweaking the phase between my woofer and mid...but it sounds awesome. http://freerider.dyndns.org/anlage/LeCleach.htm Rudy this is cool, I will give it a shot.Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Greg, I can't beleive it....are you coming over to the dark side?! I've been scratching my head about this too. I simulated the Universal network filters into the Behringer, and I'll be . . . it actually did sound like my Khorns with the Universal networks! You know Greg... if I understand how Roy/Klipsch does their chamber thing... they use the active crossover (I think typically the Dx38) to get the sound they want, then they mix/match parts in a crossover to try to reproduce that sound with passive parts. Welcome to another step down the path of the dark side! Now, if we could just get you to hear a pair of Jubilees sometime.... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Rudy this is cool, I will give it a shot. Dave Dave, please do and let me know what you think. I did it during my many attempts at learning about my new setup just for fun. I fully expected to throw the BS flag, mostly because I could not understand how the 'spread' in crossover frequencies would sound good. Seems to me the setup leaves 'holes' in the sound. I guess I don't understand the Butterworth filter because as you can see by my response curves, there are no holes. I was shocked by how good it sounded. Truly opened up the soundstage. I want others to try this technique since I don't know much about all this and would like some confirmation of my impressions or someone to throw the BS flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted March 15, 2010 Author Share Posted March 15, 2010 You guys are funny with this "dark side" thing. I've been using active crossovers for about 30 years! Boy I'm getting old. Back when I did live sound, that's how the sound systems were setup. It's nothing new to me. What IS new, is that they're getting better sounding. I've tried several different active setups over the years with my Khorns, and all of them sucked. One of them - I don't think I got back to the couch to sit down before I knew it was crap (Rane). This Behringer is noisy, but not so much that it's intolerable, and I don't trust the quality/durability of Behringer equipment for a few reasons, but the sound I'm getting with it and the T-amps is pretty amazing. The best thing about this whole deal is that I finally have some tools to work with to help me design better passive networks for my speakers and upgrades. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Dave, please do and let me know what you think. Well Rudy, so far I just tried the auto time alignment. I am impressed with this feature. I found my speakers are setup ok, the delays were LF 0mm MF 30mm and HF 0mm. I moved the mid back close to and inch and the tweeter forward and re-ran the test, now the time delay is 00mm across the board. The other change the autosetup did was reversing the tweeters polarity. What really amazed me was the difference in sound from these small changes, the midrage is full and the clarity is bettter. I will try the full setup when I have a chance. This is really good info. Thanks, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted March 15, 2010 Author Share Posted March 15, 2010 You know Greg... if I understand how Roy/Klipsch does their chamber thing... they use the active crossover (I think typically the Dx38) to get the sound they want, then they mix/match parts in a crossover to try to reproduce that sound with passive parts. Cool. Nice to know I'm not reinventing the wheel. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Here is the capacitive output stage mod for the Behringer DCX-2496. http://www.dcx2496.fr/en/tweakanalog2.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nat Denkin Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Here is the capacitive output stage mod for the Behringer DCX-2496. http://www.dcx2496.fr/en/tweakanalog2.php There seem to be lots of mods for the DCX-2496 including replacing all the analog, the digital input, low-jitter clock, etc. Some of the mods cost more than the original box. Anyone with experience trying the mods? Thanks, nat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted March 15, 2010 Author Share Posted March 15, 2010 Here is the capacitive output stage mod for the Behringer DCX-2496. http://www.dcx2496.fr/en/tweakanalog2.php I read through all the instructions. Is it just me, or are these instructions just not clear anough? This seems to be the case every time I want to do something like this. There are a few issues - I'll give you an example. The author shows a picture of RCA jacks, but in the end, the pictures still show the XLR jacks in place. What the heck?! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 The RCA Jacks are optional, he also shows 2 caps per channel instead of a single 6.8uf on the board. Just follow the schematic and use an grounding strap or the Behringer may get fried from electrostatic dischage. The other simpler option is the purchase the output board preassembled, problem is the cost for the board is more than the Behringer itself. Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Greg, I'm curious... Have you perhaps tried your Dx38 on one side and this dcx on the other channel? (connect the parallel output to the second input to give you 1 in, 4 out (mono)) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Well Rudy, so far I just tried the auto time alignment. I am impressed with this feature. I found my speakers are setup ok, the delays were LF 0mm MF 30mm and HF 0mm. I moved the mid back close to and inch and the tweeter forward and re-ran the test, now the time delay is 00mm across the board. The other change the autosetup did was reversing the tweeters polarity. What really amazed me was the difference in sound from these small changes, the midrage is full and the clarity is bettter. I will try the full setup when I have a chance. This is really good info. Thanks, Dave Fantastic. I assume you let the DCX do the time auto alignment as per the instructions. I then plugged the numbers into the excel spreadsheet and then used the results to set up the crossover. Let me know what you find when you do that. I was truly impressed with the results. I then spent an afternoon comparing that setup with the L-R 24dB setup I originally had and there was no comparisson. The 'magic' formula does something to the soundstage to make it sound wider and deeper than I had ever heard before. Its weird, but it worked on my system. I am really glad I stumbled on this. Greg, I originally found the DCX to be noisy, but only because I had yet to bring down the amp sensitivities to a level that didn't boost the system noise floor so much. I'm sure you are well versed in all that stuff so can you describe what you mean my noise in the DCX? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted March 15, 2010 Author Share Posted March 15, 2010 Greg, I'm curious... Have you perhaps tried your Dx38 on one side and this dcx on the other channel? (connect the parallel output to the second input to give you 1 in, 4 out (mono)) ? Not yet. I know where you're going with this though! I wonder too. Rudy - I'm not sure what's making the noise, the Behringer or the T-amps, but I haven't fooled around with the input levels of the Behringer yet to see if that will quiet it down, everything is at zero right now. Very little boost on the outputs. Levels are all running very low, so I've got room to tweak some things. The noise isn't that bad, it's just a hissing sound that I don't normally have on my system. Of course, when I use my SET's, I get a hum! So I can pick my poison. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Greg, to reduce the hissing turn down the T-Amps and turn up the gain on the Behringer. The mod listed removes 3 additional noisy gain stages that are not needed for in home use. If you just hearing a hiss from the tweeter, it is normal with an active as the volume controls on the amp are open all the time, this is the reason I ordered a 6 channel volume control to go between the amps and the active. The triple tube gain stages I am adding are just for fun. None of the mods are necessary for a test rig. My garage Behringer is bone stock. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Greg, I spent a LOT of time working with DrWho and others on this hissing thing. I had the same problem when I went from passive to the DCX. The wole issue is due to the system gain structure. Part of the problem is that we are feeding the DCX a very low, consumer, voltage. The DCX expects a higher pro audio voltage. So, our signal is much closer to the noise floor. The other parts of the gain structure is that many of us start with the amplifier 'sensitivity' wide open. In my case, I left the DCX inputs and outputs at zero, no gain or attenuation since changing those will can cause problems with the dynamic range that you may not want. The way to best do this is to turn down the sensitivity on your amps quite a bit. In my case, my mid range is almost all the way down, my woofer amp is about half way and my tweeter amp is almost wide open. The system is not as quiet as with the passive, but I have to try to hear the hiss. I don't mind it any more. Prior to getting the hissing worked out, it was loud and obnoxious and could be clearly heard anywhere in the room. If you get interested in the gain structure issue, check out my "Active Crossover" thread in the 2 channel forum. There is tons of links and discussion on proper gain structure in there. I will say, that our biggest problem is feeding the DCX a consumer level signal vs. a pro audio signal. The hissing thing took me a while to get right and I almost quit the project on that alone. However, now that I am on the other side, the benefits greatly outweigh the few problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 "Sex, drugs, and rock and roll are for new bands who are too poor to buy a big house to hide in" - John Entwistle, The WHO. No wife factor here but I still built a 1500ft2 shop that I can hide in. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted March 16, 2010 Author Share Posted March 16, 2010 "Sex, drugs, and rock and roll are for new bands who are too poor to buy a big house to hide in" - John Entwistle, The WHO. No wife factor here but I still built a 1500ft2 shop that I can hide in. M You'd think I could find a spot in my shop to listen to Khorns, but I just don't have the room! I have plans to build an addition, but I'm waiting for business to pick up. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 You'd think I could find a spot in my shop to listen to Khorns, but I just don't have the room (in my best Southern California Surfer voice) Duuuuuuuuuude..... you have Khorns.... LaScalas..... Jubilees.... MWM's..... have you not realized yet that if you can't get yourself to the sound, you can bring the sound to YOU, regardless of where you are? [Y] [8] [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted March 17, 2010 Author Share Posted March 17, 2010 You'd think I could find a spot in my shop to listen to Khorns, but I just don't have the room (in my best Southern California Surfer voice) Duuuuuuuuuude..... you have Khorns.... LaScalas..... Jubilees.... MWM's..... have you not realized yet that if you can't get yourself to the sound, you can bring the sound to YOU, regardless of where you are? Lol. Yes, but there is always the possibility of getting to that point, where one day, when you get home, you find your crap out on the front lawn! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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