Newbie needs help. Bigger amp or bigger speakers?

[Doug B]

First post and full of questions.

I have a Yamaha RX-750 receiver, (about 1992 vintage I think), that has 2-channel output at 80W per chanel. I am driving a set of Klipsch Forte' II and a set of KG3.2 speakers in my living room. All speakers share the same wall. I also have a newer Sharp Aquos TV that I use to to play HD cable music through the receiver and out to my speakers. I am looking for a fuller and louder sound. I have no interest in home theater surround sound.

First plan was to replace the four speakers with a set of Cornwall II's but I can't seem to justify letting the Forte's sit unused in the basement. Next plan was to replace the KG3.2's with Chorus II's. I like this idea but wonder if the RX-750 is up the the job. .

Money is an issue to the point that I do not want to exceed $1k total for this upgrade.

Questions:

1. Is the RX750 pushing two Forte' II's and two Chorus II's and adequate set up?

2. Or since I listen to these TV music channels, would my money be better spent to buy a newer & larger receiver with all that home theater "THX" stuff, (like an Onkyo TXNR807 or simular), and just use the speakers I have?

Thanks! -Doug B.

[russ69]

Buy a big amp and run it with your RX-750.

Thanx, Russ

[Mallette]

1. Is the RX750 pushing two Forte' II's and two Chorus II's and adequate set up?

Nobody here can answer that. If it is either inaccurate or accurate but not loud enough, you are the only person who can judge either which it is or what you should do about it..

2. Or since I listen to these TV music channels, would my money be better spent to buy a newer & larger receiver with all that home theater "THX" stuff, (like an Onkyo TXNR807 or simular), and just use the speakers I have?

See answer to "1"

Dave

PS-Welcome to the madness.

[willland]

I have a Yamaha RX-750 receiver, (about 1992 vintage I think), that has 2-channel output at 80W per chanel. I am driving a set of Klipsch Forte' II and a set of KG3.2 speakers in my living room. All speakers share the same wall.

Doug B,

Welcome to the forum.

Are you running all four speakers with 1 pair as speakers A and 1 pair as speakers B with AB running together. With this configuration, you have split the load and all four speakers are running at 4 ohms. Your Yamaha may not have enough current to handle it which might explain the lack of fullness and loudness. Your receiver is very well built but maybe at higher volumes with all four speakers it runs out of steam. You might want to keep what you have and add an outboard amp(or amps) to boost the power. I have an Acurus A150(150w/ch) amp for sale in the Garage Sale section if you are interested.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/134826.aspx

If you replace the KG 3.2's with Chorus II's, I would definitely suggest adding an amp.

Bill

[Doug B]

Thanks for the replies!!

When I bought the RX750 I thought it had "Pre-Amp Outputs" so I could someday add a power amp. When I review my owners manual it mentions nothing about an external amp. It reads: "PRE-OUT/MAIN IN terminals: Removing the jumper pins enables this unit to independently perform the functions of a control amplifier and a power amplifier. These terminals are for connection or a signal-processing system such as a graphic equalizer or a sound processor."

Can I run the PRE-OUT to a power amp and leave the MAIN IN (return signal) open / unused?

I was looking at the Yamaha M-70 but it states that I can only run one set of speakers at a time. So, I've been looking for a Yamaha M-80 so I can push everthing at the same time. People on the forum seem to like the M-80 but it is big and I fear blowing out the speakers if one trys to peel the paint off of the wall.

Bill- I am running the current Forte's and KG3.2 with a speaker A+B configuration. Last night the wife cranked up a Slayer/metal CD to half volume and it didn't sound so good. Like it was hissing so the volume came back down. Years ago I lived in a house with Cornwalls and I really like the full sound achieved without high volume. I am hoping the two Forte's plus two Chorus's will mimic that experience.

So, is my interpretation of the PRE-IN/MAIN OUT function wrong? Can I use PRE-OUT to drive an amp?

Thanks again! -Doug B.

[russ69]

Can I run the PRE-OUT to a power amp and leave the MAIN IN (return signal) open / unused?

That is exactly what I am suggesting. I already looked on the net to make sure you had pre-outs.

[Dennie]

I think you're running to many speakers in one room. I have enough problems trying to "tame" two speakers in my room, let alone four. I can't imagine four speakers sounding better in a room than two. I'm not talking home theater, I'm talking stereo, as I think you are too.

Is your room treated in any way? Do you use an EQ or anything else to "tame" the room?

What happens when you run one pair of speakers and crank it up? How are your speakers placed, in corners? Along the front wall? Stacked on top of each other?

What else is in the room? Furniture, coffee table, TV, Sub woofer(s) etc..can make a difference in sound quality.

BTW, Welcome to the Klipsch Forum, we're glad your here. We've got a great group of people here who love this hobby and want you to have the best experience you can have in this hobby of our. []

Dennie

[Doug B]

Thanks Russ for clearing that up. When the owners manual stated "graphic equalizer or sound board" I assumed that a power amp could not be added.

Denny, I have two speakers (Forte II & KG3) side by side to the left and right of my TV / entertainment cabinet. They are located about nine inches from the wall so the Forte has a chance to utilize the passive radiator. I ave no idea if a nine inch space is correct or not. Furniture location is probably not an issue.

Does Forte II + Chorus II = Cornwall II?

My honest goal is to replicate the sound of Cornwalls. So the plan is to add a power amp and replace the KG3's with Chorus II's. I hope to get that "fuller sound" with the Forte and Chorus speakers like a Cornwall can provide. A friend of mine is also puzzled by my thinking. He predicts the Forte's will provide no improvement when adding them to the future Chorus speakers. Is my reasoning flawed? If yes, then I should sell the Fortes and the KG3's and just shop for the Cornwalls. Any input is very much appreciated!

-Doug B.

[4tay]

Disregard

[Dennie]

Denny, I have two speakers (Forte II & KG3) side by side to the left and right of my TV / entertainment cabinet. They are located about nine inches from the wall so the Forte has a chance to utilize the passive radiator. I ave no idea if a nine inch space is correct or not. Furniture location is probably not an issue.

Does Forte II + Chorus II = Cornwall II?

My honest goal is to replicate the sound of Cornwalls. So the plan is to add a power amp and replace the KG3's with Chorus II's. I hope to get that "fuller sound" with the Forte and Chorus speakers like a Cornwall can provide. A friend of mine is also puzzled by my thinking. He predicts the Forte's will provide no improvement when adding them to the future Chorus speakers. Is my reasoning flawed? If yes, then I should sell the Fortes and the KG3's and just shop for the Cornwalls. Any input is very much appreciated!

-Doug B.

Hey Doug,

More speakers in a room rarely equal better sound. They usually just muddy up the sound because you've got frequencies bouncing all around the room and that is not usually the route to better sound. Well placed speakers in a acoustically treated room is usually the best way to go. We often can't change the room much if we have families, etc..! So lets play with the speakers, as you have some nice speakers.

Lets try something, lets take a pair of speakers out of the equation. Disconnect them and move them out of the room. Sure you could just turn off the "B" speakers, but you still have big boxes sitting in the room and they will effect the sound in the room. Then take some time and mess around with placement. TAKE NOTES! If you move the speaker all the way back into the corner and the bass becomes "Bloated" write that down so we know that does not work. Then move them out a foot and take notes and so on.

Placement and room acoustics make a BIG difference in sound quality.

.....and Fortes and Chorus do not equal Cornwalls. Never have, never will. If you are trying to get the Cornwall sound, you'll probably have to get some Cornwalls. But, you can get better sound, for now, with the speakers you have. You just can't use them all at once, unless you are doing home theater and that is a whole different subject.

Keep us posted on your progress,

Dennie

[Doug B]

Thanks 4tay. I can get loud already, but I'm looking for something "fuller". Where the room is full of music without high volume. I guess I'm trying to accomplish that with bigger speakers and more power. Perhaps Denny is on to something, maybe I need an equalizer and move my speakers around to see if I can improve on what I currently have. -Doug B.

[Dennie]

Oh and let me add, use a piece of music you are very familiar with. Your favorite CD or album or whatever you use for media. This way you will be able to, almost instantly, recognize little differences. Like the fullness of a Bass drum or the clarity of a Saxophone or the plucking of a Guitar string, etc.

Use the same piece of music with each move of the speakers and don't try and do this in one day. Move the speakers and listen for a day or two or three. Then move them and listen to the familiar music again for a couple of days, etc.

I have found that getting great sound is a journey, not a destination.

Dennie

[Doug B]

Denny, I was writing my blog while you wrote yours, so yes I think you are onto something here! The KG3's added some base and loudness but I can't say the sound was "better". I can mess around with the Forte II's and see if I can make a improvement. Otherwise it may be time to make the upgrade to Chorus II or Cornwall II, whichever I can afford. Thanks again.

Another question regarding Chorus speakers; I'd prefer Chorus II as they have the passive radiator. But, there is a pair of Chorus I speakers for sale locally with Bob Crite crossovers and titanium tweeter plate (or something like that). Do these upgrades make these Chorus I's as good as Chorus II's?

[4tay]

Disregard

[Mallette]

Thanks 4tay. I can get loud already, but I'm looking for something "fuller". Where the room is full of music without high volume. I guess I'm trying to accomplish that with bigger speakers and more power. Perhaps Denny is on to something, maybe I need an equalizer and move my speakers around to see if I can improve on what I currently have. -Doug B.

If you want a room full of music without high volume, it's efficiency you are looking for. The more efficient a speaker is, the lower the level at which it reaches its full range. My K'horns deliver full range sound at very low levels with less than a watt, as do my various Fraziers.

My favorite PWK quote is "What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifer." Because context is everything, I hope it's not condescending to mention that it's a joke on Woodrow Wilson's VP Thomas Riley Marschall aside whilst listening to a blowhard Senator talk about what the country needed. During a quiet moment he said "What this country needs is a good 5 cent cigar." PWK would have heard this as a young man.

In any event, power is necessary only for inefficient speakers, and inefficient speakers are (at least in my experience) generally poor at performing well at low listening levels. An old fashioned Fletcher-Munson based loudness circuit can help...but I prefer to stick with Herr Professor Klipsch philosphy.

Dave

PS-Bear in mind it's SMALLER speakers that need more power to move the same amount of air due to their smaller cones. The larger the speaker enclosure and the better its design, the less power needed to achieve full range performance. Read PWK's 8 Card for a basic foundation. Just as true now as 50 years ago.

[Dennie]

Denny, I was writing my blog while you wrote yours, so yes I think you are onto something here! The KG3's added some base and loudness but I can't say the sound was "better". I can mess around with the Forte II's and see if I can make a improvement. Otherwise it may be time to make the upgrade to Chorus II or Cornwall II, whichever I can afford. Thanks again.

Another question regarding Chorus speakers; I'd prefer Chorus II as they have the passive radiator. But, there is a pair of Chorus I speakers for sale locally with Bob Crite crossovers and titanium tweeter plate (or something like that). Do these upgrades make these Chorus I's as good as Chorus II's?

Hey Doug,

I found this thread on Forte II Placement------------> CLICK HERE (opens in new window)

Speaker placement makes a big difference. I use 1 1/2" binders under the fronts of my La Scalas to get the tweeter and squawker horns aimed a little higher, as I sit pretty close to them and the higher frequencies were aimed at my chest. Raising the fronts gave me a "cleaner/clearer" sound. I also toe them in a little. Makes a big difference.

You've got some beautiful speakers. You are running plenty of power (for now) for the Forte II's and I think if you get better speaker placement, you'll be happier with them. You can still upgrade, it is in our blood, but those speakers should sound pretty darn good.

I've never owned Chorus or II's, but maybe someone who knows more about them can answer your questions.

How old are your Forte II's? If the capacitors are bad, replacing them will make a difference in the sound quality also.

Keep us posted,

Dennie