RSW15 does really well in S&V review

[bacevedo]

I am not sure why I haven't seen this posted here yet. If it has, sorry, but I wanted to get the news out.

I just received my current S&V, and they did a review of a full Klipsch reference setup (RF7 etc.) and the RSW 15 sub.

In the lab, they said the RSW was one of the best measuring subs they have ever had.

97 db at 20 Hz, 112 db at 32 Hz, and 112 db average response from 25 - 62 Hz.

So for anyone wondering, that RSW15 is a great sub. Also, I saw it at brandnamez.com for like $1400 or something. Not a bad price at all for that kind of performance.

And the rest of the speakers got a great review as well. The reviewer was pretty impressed with their sound and dynamics.

Bryan

[Kevin S]

If I interpert the figures from that article correctly, at maximum output, 20hz is 15db down from 32hz (97db vs. 112db.). Assuming that relationship stays the same at lower volume levels, that doesn't seem particularly good to me. Seems like plenty of output above 30hz, but not much under 30, relatively speaking.

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L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II

Surround: Klipsch RS-3

Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2

Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132

AMP: McIntosh MC-7205

DVD: McIntosh MVP-831

CD Transport: Bang & Olufsen Beosound 9000

Turntable: Denon DP-72L

Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1

T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905

SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100

Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000

[TheEAR]

Kevin S,

I have to agree,for its size the RSW15 does perform poorly below 30Hz.I like my little RSW10,but I know it starts to fall fast below 35Hz.

Klipsch should release a RSW18,and this time make the sub hold to at least 110dB at 25Hz.

And

Compare these figures to a Sunfire Signature,the Sunfire has more output at 30Hz and way more at 25Hz and dominates with absurd ease at 20Hz.

Only large HGS Velodynes and oild barrels of doom like the SVS Ultra whip the Sunfire(well DUH the SVS and HGS18 are many times larger,so DUH)

Iwish Bob Carver made a Sunfire Ultra Sig.using custom

18" drivers in a 20" cube.The competition would be six feet under.

Bob if you read this MAKE a Ultra Signature 20" cube.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[boomer9911]

How true TE, but if a Velodyne HGS18 comes across my path, adios RSW15. I had one(trade in)for 1500 CDN in my sight and lost on it...UGH....snooze you loose

The Sunflower has taken off here...BIG interest. Great match for Monsoon's...fast.

This message has been edited by boomer9911 on 04-13-2002 at 01:00 AM

[bacevedo]

So what you're saying is that it really doesn't matter what it's maximum output is. It matters how it is in relation to the higher frequencies? I guess I don't understand what a true definition of Frequency response is vs. what maximum output and extension is.

Bryan

[Kevin S]

bacevedo,

As an example lets use the following: 20hz to 150 hz +/- 3 db. The 20hz to 150hz portion of this example is the "bandwidth". The +/- 3db portion is the "frequency response". The goal for a subwoofer is to get the bandwidth as low as possible while maintaining a fairly smooth frequency response. +/- 3 db has sort of become the defacto standard everyone seems to shoot for.

In Sound and Visions measurements of the RSW-15, they showed the bandwidth/frequency response to be 48hz to 115hz +/- 2.1db. Now the sub had output below 48 hz, but at a rapidly dropping frequency response level. Based on the chart they showed, bandwidth ran out just above 20hz, but the frequency response was about 17db down compared to it's peak output. This is not close to Klipsch's specification of 19 to 120hz +/-3db.

So while the RSW-15 had great maximum output, that output peaked at 114.5 db at 50hz. It's maximum output at 20hz was 97 db. 97 db of maximum output at 20hz is good, unless you have to listen to the rest of the frequncies at 114 db to get there, which I believe is what these measurements are telling us.

I hope this answered your question. If not, or if I have gotten this wrong, I'm sure I'll get plenty of help from the others!

[bacevedo]

Thanks Kevin - that makes sense.

I guess if you used an EQ to level out the peaks, then it would be good, otherwise I get what your saying - 97db at 20Hz isn't good if you have 115db everywhere else.

However, does that mean that at lower volumes, 20 Hz will always be 17 db lower? That is what I don't get. If I am watching a movie at -20 below reference, will the bass still be that mis-matched, or is it only when you are going all out?

Bryan

[boa12]

bac, kevin i think is refering to all out sub capabilities. of course up to that point you should be fine if you have the sub output level balanced w/ the other speaks w/ your receiver/prepro speaker level settings.

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My Home Systems Page

[Kevin S]

bacevedo,

In my experience, the relative levels I measure in my room seem to stay the same regardless of the overall volume level. So to use our example, 20hz would always be 17db down, regardless of the overall volume level.

[boa12]

kev, i think what bac is asking is will the rsw always be down 17db relative to the other speaker levels rather than the down 17db from the sub's peak.

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My Home Systems Page

[Kevin S]

boa,

Yes it would be, if, you set your other speakers levels to match your subs peak output. For example, lets say that the sub measures peak output at 50hz, and you are measuring at 75db. You then set your other speakers up so that 1khz measures 75 db. Basically what you have done is determine that you are going to reference your levels to 75 db at 1khz.

Referenced to 75db at 1khz, the sub would measure "flat" at 50hz (the same 75db) and would measure 58db at 20hz (17db down. I have found that this type of relationship would stay the same at any overall volume level.

For example, using my current setup, here is what my system measures at my listening position:

1khz=73db

80hz=70db-this is where the subs crossover to the Heresy's

63hz=75db

50hz=73db

40hz=74db

31hz=73db

25hz=71db

20hz=69db

These relationships stay the same at all volume levels. In other words, I am always 4db down at 20hz.

[boa12]

kevin, i follow ya. guess i wasn't thinking of the freq level used for sub in the test tones. so is the standard for pink noise sub tones at 50hz? never have actually thought about that.

if so like you probably said above, for the rsw one needs some serious EQ to get 'em in balance. when i run my pre/pro test tones i'm still getting some strong pressure nodes below 35hz. can't say I mind that though.

& which sub(s) you using again kevin. svs by chance? oh just saw above - hsu. nice freq curve/room response there buddy!

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My Home Systems Page

This message has been edited by boa12 on 04-15-2002 at 03:22 PM

[Kevin S]

boa,

I do not think that there is a standard frequency used when blending subs with mains, I just used 50hz as my example. Personally I match 31.5 hz to 1khz and work from there to smooth the bass as much as possible. In my case, I could raise the level of the sub a tick and get it flat a 20hz, but doing so creates too much of a peak at 63 hz for my tastes. Peaky 63hz is what I have found to be the cause of "boomy" bass in many cases.

FWIW, I have always gotten the smoothest bass response from subs by placing them in the corner. Currently, I have my HSU's stacked on top of one another in the front left corner. Stacking them increased the output at 20hz by about 3 db, while at the same time allowing me to reduce the subs overall level, which brought 63 hz down from a 6db peak to a 2 db peak. Frankly, when it comes to in room bass response, it helps to be a bit obsessive/compulsive. I can see why so many people simply turn the sub up until it thuds and shakes the walls and call it a day.

[boa12]

kevin, 10-4. as horned a tower of power. ;-)

just did my room using the b&k sine wave generator. high cross from all speaks (small) to velo at 50hz. same for low pass on velo. speakers & sub balanced flat w/ no EQ to the boa ref level of 88db. (hey it's a smaller room ). & it ain't pretty unless your seb. j/k seb.

100hz-85db

94hz-92

84-84

74-91

64-88

56-95

50-99 (this is the cross point & where i normally notch

it down -4db, 50hz being midpoint w/ a 46-54hz range).

40-92

34-93

30-98

26-97db

24-96db

22hz-96db

20hz-95db

the generator at this level indicates -42db (it'll go higher output but don't want to damage anything ), don't know at all what they mean or if this is in sync w/ their test tone level of 75db reference level. doesn't look like it.

skipped some of the increments for brevity, but this gives an idea I hope. terrible room response but seems to work ok with the pressure node in the lower freq for me.

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My Home Systems Page

[Kevin S]

boa,

How do those bass measurementss relate to your midrange levels, ie: 1khz. If your 1khz level is at 88db, then I would think you have your bass levels too high. (I know, some of you out there think that there is no such thing as too much bass!) On the other hand, if your 1khz level is about 95 db, you've done quite well.

Edit: Boa, now that I think about it, if your average level is 88db, and your bass levels are in the 95 db range, you almost certainly have your bass levels too high, IMHO. In other words, you are running your bass range about +7db from the rest of the range. Reducing this bass heavy blance should give you better midrange and treble clarity, I think.

This message has been edited by Kevin S on 04-15-2002 at 04:28 PM

[boa12]

kevin, good ?. the reference level for me is at 88db.

can't imagine setting it to 75db as they say.

the sub actually bounces the needle up to around 94db at some times, but i can live w/ it.

i don't think the low freq sine wave generator has any real relation to the test tones. not that i can determine or using the b&k manual anyhow. i did put it

on the -30db level & got around 112db at the 52hz mark.

not much more than 100db at 20hz though.

the highest i could get. maybe it means -30db from full output. yikes. but dk. of course it only goes to 300hz.

may have to check w/ somebody who knows at b&k.

oh & the meter is at the sweet spot for all of the above. about 12ft from the front array & 8 ft from the rears.

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My Home Systems Page

This message has been edited by boa12 on 04-15-2002 at 04:40 PM

[boa12]

kevin, you're probably right. my needle bounces so much on the sub reading it may be hitting 95db more than 88db. maybe i should go from the other direction.

can always crank the velo w/ the remote. right now it's dial's at about 4/10. i usually leave the preamp at 0 and adjust the sub's dial. maybe 3-3.5

is more in order.

guess you mean those higher bass levels can affect the highs/mids in the room. iow, drown them out some.

maybe the avia disk has something to work with. will check that out too.

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My Home Systems Page

[Marathon Man]

Here we go again bashing the RSW-15. I guess I have to contiue to be the only one on this board who will come to its rescue. I really am sadden by the fact that given all the negative talk about the sub that the Klipsch reps don't step up and fight this battle with me. your making me look bad guys . Anyway back to what I was saying. Its ashame that the only good quality about a subwoofer (on this board anyway) is how loud the sub plays below 20 Hz at which the human ear cannot hear anyway. Sure you can feel the freqs that low but how much is enough. I OWN THE SUB, and I am hear to tell you that if the sub is setup correctlly it will give you pleny good solid bass below 20 Hz and will also put some pain in your ear drums since thats what it sounds like most of your goals are. The sub not only delivers good heart throbbing bass it sounds oh so good. Don't forget that your theater should sound good and not just be loud. Keep listening to frequencies below 20 Hz at 110 db and I promise you will be deaf in a matter of years, and all this expensive equipment and this wonderful hobby will be all for not. Sorry I keep drifting from my point. The point is that the RSW-15 is a great sub for most applications unless your theater is in a concert hall. The sub is great in a home theater application, but really shines musically. For all you audiophiles that are thinking about the RSW-15 don't be discouraged by the fact that the RSW does not do play as loud below 20 Hs as some other. Loud is not always the best. Go out and listen to the sub and make up your own mind. If there is one thing that I have learned in this hobby is that no two people hear alike and the best advise is the advise of your own ears. I hope you don't read this thread and come away with the wrong impression. To each his own when it comes to home audio but lets not give this product a bad rep just because it does not sound like a volcano is in your living room. The subwoofer should be setup exactly like Kevin suggests. Unfortunatly most folks new to this hobby, and even some who are not so new to this hobby don't understand frequency response as it realates to listening levels. Well put kevin.

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MM

This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-15-2002 at 06:01 PM

[boa12]

good points m-man. guess sometimes this loud low bass rattles my brain too much & i get caught up in the macho area of sub output.

btw, have you used the ref 30's generator under room equalization? i can't figure out what they mean by -42db, -30db. from what point? full preamp output? couldn't be from their 75db reference level. or could it. may have to call them (again). will also check on the possible upgrade status while i'm at it.

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My Home Systems Page

[Marathon Man]

Boa12,

Im thinking that it has to mean -xx from 0 or mid volume (main vol) with the sub volume in speaker levels set to 0. When you call them can you also find out the db for the generator on the speaker levels (main menu 5, sub menu 1, sub menu 3 (speaker levels)). It may also be that the low freq generator may be -xx from the sub volume in speaker levels. It has to be one of the two thats what Im thinking.

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MM

This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-15-2002 at 06:26 PM