Question for HornEd

[Mlstrass]

Just curious: are you running all those 30's large or small??

I know you have a pair of SVS's, but it seems a waste to not be hearing all that those (14) 12" drivers have to offer.

When my 20's get here next week I'm going to do some SERIOUS testing to see which way I prefer....Mike

This message has been edited by Mlstrass on 04-13-2002 at 01:01 AM

[boa12]

m, i know for a fact horned has all set small, which i think is usually best w/ a fixed cross up around 80-100hz. but you have a valid point imho. but if you have/get a processor w/ flexible, adjustable crossover, large/small becomes a nonissue.

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[HornEd]

Boa has the answer, but the reason is a bit more broad.

One, the SVS Twin Ultra Tower delivers all the high quality, smoothly integrated bass with a clarity and force the thirty's cannot match.

Two, there seems to be an a rough area between high bass and low mid-range on most cone speakers that can be avoided if they are set to "SMALL".

Three, freeing the woofers from the long excursions required in reproducing great bass with a broad range woofer creates a more dynamic musical mid-range.

Before I actually tried them on "SMALL" with an adequate subwoofer... I was firmly in the camp of those most reluctant to set their big woofers to "SMALL"... so try to listen with "open ears" for an honest answer! -HornED

PS: Thanks for pointing that out below, Shapeshifter! I have edited the text to put "adequate" in bold (just as it was in my mind when I originally wrote the line). -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 04-13-2002 at 09:25 AM

[ShapeShifter]

quote:

---

Originally posted by HornEd:

Before I actually tried them on "SMALL" with an adequate subwoofer... I was firmly in the camp of those most reluctant to set their big woofers to "SMALL"...-HornED

---

M, I totally agree HE! The operative word in his statement is adequate subwoofer. I too was in that camp unitl a year ago. I happen to read an article at hometheaterhifi.com on Bass Management and the Misunderstood 5.1 LFE Channel, it was written by Brian Florian. Initially it upset me to think that my sub choice was not adequate, but like HornED, Brian was right! With the addition of an SVS sub, speakers are set small and bass reproduction is wonderful.

Wes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

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2 Channel System

Laurel IIX Mono Blocks

Conrad-Johnson PV-14L Preamp

71 ALK Cornwall II's (w/Laurels)

Ah! Tjoeb 99 CD (Direct to Preamp)

Fisher 800B Tube Receiver (Outs to CJ Preamp)

84 Heresy's (w/Fisher 800B)

Sony CDP-CA80ES (Fisher to CJ)

Sony Cassette TC-K444esII (Fisher to CJ0

Technics Turntable SL-D2 (Fisher to CJ)

Akiai GX-280D 4 Track Reel (Fisher to CJ)

DAK Stereo Power Controller

Main HT Setup

NAD T 761 Receiver (Pre-outs to /Anthem Amp 1/Jolida 102B/Outlaw 750)

SF Anthem Amp 1 (Tube Amp)

Jolida 102B (Tube Amp)

Outlaw 750 5 Channel Amp

Belle Klipsch (Front w/Anthem Amp 1 or Jolida 102B)

Klipsch Academy (Center w/Outlaw)

85 Klipsch Cornwall I's w/B Networks (Rear w/Outlaw)

Klipsch RS-3's (Rear w/NAD)

SVS SV20-39CS SUB (NAD 2400THX Amp Bridged)

Klipsch KSW-12 (Sub) (w/NAD Mains)

Denon DVM-3700 HDCD/DVD

Mitsubishi Stereo VCR

Mitsubishi 52" Wide Screen

Sony Remote Commander RM-AV2100

Monster Cable HTS-3500 Audio/Video Power Conditioner

This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 04-13-2002 at 06:06 AM

[avman]

beleive me, the last thing i would do is 'waste' the bass-making capability of ANY of my speakers. i'm really glad that my 777ES allows (w/'small' speaker setting) me to INDIVIDUALLY adjust the 'rolloff-to-sub' frequency for center(60Hz), l,r main(40Hz),and rear(70Hz);thus allowing ALL of my components to perform to their fullest capability. my receiver's amp is happy not to have to reproduce DEEPEST bass,thus saving power(of which it isn't lacking anyway);my speakers are reproducing the frequencies they are best at doing, and my rsw-15 is nicely handling the rest,including adding the deeper bass than even my klf-30's can't do. avman.

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1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center

ksps-6 surrounds

RSW-15

sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1

sony playstation 2

sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer

dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner

sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv

sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen

Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

[boa12]

i've found, though it's a global adjustable crossover, the addition of the adjustability has given the 30s & cornwalls a new lease on life. of course with an key word = ADEQUATE amp, the 30s produce the 2nd octave

(40-80hz) much better than the sub (given it's not ultra but still a capable velo hgs-18).

the adjustability to 50hz to all (yes even the C7 because it's global) improves both the quantity and quality of low bass (usually a vicious trade-off). lets the 30s rock where they should and the rear cornwalls become like a rear sub as the mixers put more

low stuff behind. of course the hgs-18 then handles mainly the 1st octave low bass & all of the LFE as it does best.

so not only more overall low bass & letting the 30s produce that sledgehammer kick drum like they're so very capable, but a more even room response on the low bass (better quality) to boot.

of course with svs like ed's tower of power and a dif room could make an adjustable cross practically unnecessary, i'd be curious how some crossover control would work with ed's set-up. maybe set all the 30s large & put in an external low pass to the ultra tower.

u know i've been prodding u to try this he & i hope u soon will.

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[ShapeShifter]

Been interested in the Outlaw 950 7.1 Preamp/Processor as an upgrade. So I downloaded its Manual yesterday. It does have some interesting functionality for Bass Management/Speaker Configuration. Its Crossover Menu allows for independently setting the internal high pass filter for front, center and surrounds from 40Hz-150Hz. In increments of 20HZ from 40-120Hz(would've preferd smaller increments) and a 30Hz jump from 120-150Hz.

Seems to only offer L/R Surround Back and L/R Side Surround outs. No Front Effects or Rear Center out. Overall, the features and functions identified are not bad for a 7.1 Preamp/Processor in this price range. Still awaiting user feedback, and want to check out other offerings too.

Wes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

[boa12]

wes yes that's even better for flexibility, though yea i need at least 10hz increments as the mains/sub do much better at 50hz than 40 or 60 w/ my room. the b&k does 5hz increments but it's global so the 50hz also applies to the C7 i have. would prefer setting them at

80hz but they actually hold their own well down to 50hz

w/ about all material.

hopefully b&k will add specific group setting in a future upgrade. i'm curious how they handle it. guess

the low pass to sub is also set seperately rather than

in conjuction with the high pass settings. when it's global everything is set at that point - high pass & low pass to sub.

but if some are at 40hz & others at 80hz maybe no low pass is used & the sub just gets what is sent from the others' high pass. come to think of it, when i called outlaw on the icbm, i think that's the way the tech explained it was done. & of course as usual all LFE is sent to only the sub out/sub.

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[Mlstrass]

Thanks for the responses, more "food for thought." My 3802 only goes down to 80Hz. My new sub will be VERY capable, but I'm still interested in crossing over a little lower if possible. Want to see what the KLF-10 cc is capable of...

What kind of bass management device could I add to allow me to do this??

[boa12]

m, sorry but the only way of getting more flexible bass

mgmt w/ a processor would be to get something like that

outlaw icbm & put it between the 3802 and a power amp,

or the 3802 direct inputs and the analog outs of a dvdp

preferably a dvd-audio/sacd/hdcd player.

if more receivers had power inputs it's be a snap (just put the icbm between those and the preouts). unfortunately few do have those power ins.

you could use the sub's low pass crossover but there too is a problem because all LFE is sent only to the sub & you could cut some upper LFE (& it's just lost).

that's why i keep harping on these higher fixed crossovers in the processor when one has bigger speaks that can do well below 80 or 90hz. if you have a capable sub though 80hz should be ok though not ideal.

ideal of course costs more bucks and is more in the real finicky fine tuning realm.

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[anarchist]

Thought I would jump in with a few thoughts, some are a little off topic to this thread but are related.

Setting all to small and directing all LFE to the sub WAS a good idea at one time. Multi-channel audio, however, is being mixed expecting full-range speakers (which means full range not >80hz) at every location. LFE is also used but only for the lowest frequencies. There was an article on this not that long ago and jibes with HornEd's insistence on equal speakers all around but runs counter to the set to small argument.

Movies are also moving in this direction but at this point still send much of the bass to the LFE channel. The identical speaker argument for general home theater is flawed in my opinion; a WDST speaker, with the appropriate freq. resp. will sound just as good if not better than a direct speaker provided your processor has the ability to accomodate it. BTW, Yamaha receivers do not. WDST requires 0 delay in processing while direct requires delays; there is also distance to account for but really, it is that simple. Either will work provided you have the appropriate processing.

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Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

The move to separates is coming, I can feel it.

[ShapeShifter]

Boa, their manual is a bit confusing and they're in the process of rewriting based on initial customer feedback. After laying the manual out in three sections, it appears those setting are available in what's called Cirrus Extra Surround Mode. It is a unique decoding algorithm for 6.1 or 7.1 output from either matrix encoded or discrete audio signals. Further appears to be a selection that is used in conjunction with a Primary Surround mode. Their main options for setting global internal High Pass is at 80Hz or 100Hz. So the Cirrus Extra Mode offers added flexibility to augment High Pass for Primary Surround Formats? Will probably be a matter of taste and preference as to how one likes this feature. Their web site they states that the ICBM could be used for more Bass Management flexibility. I don't want to buy a new component and have to purchase a major accessory too! Still deciphering the manual.

Yea, it would be nice to separately adjust for each speaker group in 5Hz increments. Has B&K given any indication as to what possible upgrades are planned for the future? I haven't crossed B&K of my list! Thanks for the feedbackWes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 04-14-2002 at 08:48 PM

[ShapeShifter]

Crash,

Missed your post while I was editing my previous one. Just wonder how many & how quickly manufacturers will move to make eq to take advantage of this? There always seems to be battles over who's format or logic will be the standard. Thus delays to us consumers.

Wes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

[anarchist]

Hi Shapeshifter,

Several of the pre/pro's I am looking at give you full ability to optimize the sound. The Anthem actually allows you to specify dipoles or WDST. The Lexicons allow you to specify delays, distances, etc. to optimize the sound depending on speakers as do quite a few others.

It would be nice if all just let you specify 'full towers', 'direct', 'WDST', and the sort so 'novices' could tune their system simply. Those consumed with sound simply need systems that give them the flexibility to adjust the settings properly.

My Yamaha, for instance, while a good receiver, does not allow me to adjust the distances to any of the speakers nor does it allow me to remove the delay from the surrounds.

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Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

The move to separates is coming, I can feel it.

[boa12]

crash, yes i can attest to the mixers doing more low bass in the other channels besides lfe. well at least in the rears anyway now that i got the b&k 7270 pumpin into the rear cornwalls. they've become more like a rear sub if the mix is right & w/ the dts choice.

example, "training day" just last night. a lot of real low bass in the rears.

probably more if i could drop that global crossover from 50hz. you'd think 40hz would be more appropriate but i've tried it there numerous times, but the overall bass quality & quantity still sounds best w/ 50hz with my room & set-up. plus i have those smaller C7 in the mix though they're still not distorting bad at 40hz but sound a lil strained on some stuff. the velo hgs-18 still handles the low bass below 50hz as well as the LFE real fine.

when i had the marantz sr8000 with it's fixed 80hz, on a lot of 5.1 material i'd just switch to direct to get all 5 full-range and the sub just doing the lfe. sounded great on some but not so well if the mixers overlaped a lot of the low bass & the lfe, which they seem to do a lot w/ music in movies or concerts. like you say, then we're at the mercy of the mixers.

wes, just wishful thinking for that so far on the b&k reference 30. just talked to the tech there last week & still nothing official on the upgrade. i think it'll be by year's end though caus they need to get dolby PLII and dts es 6.1 discrete in there.

however i think they're holding off to see if there's gonna be a universal connection for dvd-audio &/or sacd. looks like they're thinking it'll be firewire w/ the ieee port. it's there but no card, so that'd require a hardware upgrade. they don't have a dsp software upgrade from one's own computer as far as i know.

would also think they'd be looking to upgrade the dacs to 192/24 but again i think that's linked to the dvd-audio/sacd standard coming thru. they already have

a great processor in the motorola dna so doubt they touch that for a while. but then again they are the test lab for motorola's audio offerings.

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My Home Systems Page

[boa12]

just wanted to add if you guys are considering the b&k reference 30, be sure to give it a demo. for me it was a whole new world compared to the previous marantz sr8000 hooked to an acurus 200five at the time. not that the marantz was bad but the ref 30 is so crystal clear and dynamic. i can now hear the actors' lips smack & pop and that kinda stuff that was not as clear before. it's also excellent on 2-channel music.

after all, the features are important, but b&k does do their upgrades & it is the sound that matters most. of course i want it all too.

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My Home Systems Page

[ShapeShifter]

Crash, I really like the flexibility of Anthem's AVM 20, it's costly but very nice. Haven't done any significant reading on Lexicons though. I do see that Upscale Audio carries that brand. Got to check them out too. I agree that some manufacturers are making trade offs in flexibility to make their equipment attractive to novices.

boa, I'll be visiting B&K's site periodically to keep an eye out for posted changes. Please give a heads-up if you find out any significant info from techs. I'm trying to be patient and wait till the end of year before upgrading.

Good topic & info guys!

Wes

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"KLIPSCH IS MUSIC"f>

This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 04-15-2002 at 09:15 AM

[HornEd]

crash827, while I appreciate your input, I have run extensive tests in my dedicated HT room testing WDST speakers and various amps/preamps on a continuing basis. The amount of money I have spent and advice I have given to the manager of my local dealership makes such tests easy to arrange.

The WDST speakers provide better ambient sound with poorly mixed or outdated (ProLogic) source material... and that is a good reason to buy them since so much of that is still around and in many places 5.1 doesn't happen on cable TV. The reason I passed on WDST is that my room and speakers are large enough to create sufficient ambient sound on lower quality sources... and a much greater level of enjoyment on higher quality sources converted from 5.1 discrete to 6.1.

Further, you are using a recommended integrated system starring KSP-400's like my friend fini and enjoy a better timbre match than most folks. The KSP series had a lot to like with powered tower punch and the matching sound sprayers (KSP-S6) ambience... but they failed to win popular acceptance... and cannot match the bass of, say Boa's Velo 18.

For my systems, I prefer a much tighter timbre match and the exquisite joy of 6.1 in a natural sounding full-range environment.

You might wonder why I say full-range environment when I have my six KLF-30's set to "SMALL"... or think that I am somehow losing benefits in the 36-80Hz range on six speakers.

Clearly, hours of experimentation and metering prove (IMHO) that the quality, dynamic range, clarity, slam, tightness, and "musicality" of my dual SVS Ultra 7' Sub Tower that can put out over 121.5 dB's at 20Hz is far better than six KLF-30's in the 36-80 Hz range. Also, within that range there is a frequency band at which most cone woofers have difficulty in accurate sound reproduction (the point between hi-bass and lo-midrange) that is side-stepped on "SMALL" altogether.

Further, the integration between the powerful SubTower and the six KLF-30's is transparent. The SVS subs output is so clean and the resulting bass so non-directional that the low bass seems to be coming from the area of the KLF-30 that would be generating it if it were on "large."

Not to be dismissed lightly is the fact that KLF-30's freed of the long-stroking 36-80Hz chore dramatically improve their ability to handle complex mid-range with greater clarity and accuracy.

So, crash, for what it's worth, I will stick with identical better quality monopoles, higher quality subwoofers, and the "SMALL" setting that gets the most overall quality sound from them. BTW, every major comparison is "auditioned" by a wide ranging group of ears from the neighborhood accustomed to seeing movies in my HT.

As a research-oriented, think-tank person before retirement, I try to obtain comparative comments not influenced by any of my own audio prejudice. Carefully positioned identical monopoles set to "SMALL" in conjunction with an ADEQUATE subwoofer array has won consensus approval ever since the SVS Ultras were a factor.

Similar high praise was echoed by my guests for the conversion of a KLF-30 into a "Center Main"... I cannot stress enough the 6.1 pleasure that a full bodied, Mains matching, Center brings to a system.

In a new installation later this year, I will probably experiment with Boa's approach to bass management. And, I shall continue to report the results of my ongoing tests with candor and concern for the well being of my fellow Klipschers. -HornED

PS: I appreciate the clear and concise way you presented the benefits found in your reading research and have tried to respond in kind from actual in-the-house testing. It is this kind of contrast that makes this Forum a cut above most others. -HornED

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Photo update soon! -HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 04-15-2002 at 11:20 AM

[boa12]

ed, now that i think about it just a low-pass to the ultra tower probably wouldn't work best because then you could be cutting some of the upper LFE. guess it takes a total processor bass mgmt approach like the outlaw icbm or receiver/prepro that does it all.

though still not sure on this, i think w/ the yammy you can send LFE to both the fronts & sub, so maybe that way you could recapture w/ the fronts what the low pass

is cutting. still may not be best soundwise though.

imo LFE being a seperate channel is best reproduced sent only to capable sub(s).

funny guys both my b&k prepro & amp came from Upscale Audio. though i didn't order from them directly if you know what i mean. they failed to take their shipping tags off the boxes. if i would have known i would have went straight to them for a deal by phone or email.

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