Surround (RS-7) Placement

[HornEd]

Sorry, Crash827, you were going pretty well there but CRASHED in the end game!

But, to a degree you and Boa came up with some of the answers to your post before I had a chance to respond.

First, anyone who says that cutting off a KLF-30 at 80Hz has wasted the KLF-30 has never heard what a properly positioned and calibrated 7' tall SVS Ultra Twin Tower can do... If you did, you would swear that it was the KLF-30's kicking out that deep driving, gut slamming bass. Only clean, crisp, non-directional bass can give you that kind of results. IMHO, it is more than adequate and BETTER than all those Legends can muster by actual A/B comparisons. That's why I haven't rushed out for more bass management for the home theater.

However, when I complete the anticipated move, I expect to put bass management into the Heritage system so that I can enjoy the excellence of their horn loaded clarity and accuracy.

The value of the KLF-30 Center Channel shares some of the attributes of having a Belle for a Center with K-horns... or in your example, what you claim for the KSP-C6 with the KSP 400's. The closer you match your center to your mains, driver for driver and cubic inch for cubic inch, port for port... the better you HT and SACD experience will be! From my personal experience with my own gear and with helping others bring their centers up to a better standard, there is no denying the dramatic center channel improvement under actual A/B testing in each case.

If you have been following my posts for any length of time, you will note that I have held that monopoles are best for folks who have plenty of room and that people with smaller rooms should opt for a WDST solution. Properly placed, 3 or 4 monopoles in the rear array (2 Side-Surround, 1 or 2 Rear Effects) adequately cover the sweetspot. Of course, I will agree that the KLF-C7 Front Effects greatly enlarge the soundstage and tend to provide timbre-matched ambiance as well.

It is interesting to note that Sony's new SDDS (Sony Dynamic Digital System) commercial theater format adds two discretely processed speakers that function much like the Yamaha Front Effects system... but the speakers are placed against the side walls nearer the front speakers firing toward the center. This system is particularly interesting to me since I jury rigged much the same effect by mating two Yamaha surround sound pre-amp/amps for my 60 seat showroom theater over about 15 years ago! It was a dynamite theater for its time with the same eight channels SDDS now uses. It is no wonder that the then head sound guys for Hard Rock Cafes thought I had put at least $40k into the sound system... instead of less than 10% of that number!

Obviously, discussing the relative merits of something so personal and complex as different sound systems in different acoustics environments becomes somewhat of a moot point. For the present, we derive so much enjoyment from the current HT that further tweaking before it is moved to its new location must be deferred due to more important projects. I will say that I have yet to have anyone sit down in the sweetspot for ten minutes and be less than awed... and that includes some pretty savvy audio and HT folks.

The directionality of horn tweeters is a primary concern whenever I set up a horn based system. I actually use a laser pointer from my guest lecturer days to precisely align my speakers... and, of course, an SPL meter to dial them in. As part of my research for this particular HT room, I auditioned a Denon 5800 with various WDST and other Klipsch speakers for about ten days, or so. I fiddled and twiddled... but I could not improve upon the sound that I had... or else we would be having a defend interchange. That testing did occur, however, prior to the introduction of the Ref*7 and RSW lines.

The advantage I have is that I have tried it both ways in my acoustics environment under A/B conditions... and kept the better system. It may not work for everyone... and I had to slice up a KLF-30 to get it right... but if PWK could return for ten minutes in my Klipsch based HT... his little yellow button would stay in his pocket!

My heart is still heavy at his passing. I knew he was quite ill and feel privileged to be among the first 300 to receive autographed copies of his biography. If you haven't taken the opportunity to get one, do so. Having it along with the PWK anecdotes that pop up on this Forum make following the Klipsch trail a worthwhile, life-improving adventure.

My only regret in the testing phase is that I was unable to test a pair of KSP-S6's in my environment so I could give T-T-K a first-hand evaluation of that particular speaker set. Ah, but who knows what tomorrow may bring. I look forward to the time, later this year, when I will have time to indulge in a round of potential upgrades.

And, seriously, Crash & Boa I appreciate the "benefit of the doubt" that you seem to extend to me in your most recent posts. It provides a good basis for dialogue after the "good natured ribbing" slides into the mutual learning phase. You are the kind of folks that make this Forum worthwhile. -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-11-2002 at 05:42 AM

[USparc]

quote:

---

Originally posted by crash827:

Uh,

In the words of PWK, Bullshit. I watched The Matrix again yesterday. I watched the lobby scene two times and at very high volumes. Listening to shell casings dropping and scattering, listening to gun fire emanating from various places in the room, listening to guns sliding across the floor in different directions...none of it 'lost in space.'

---

See, you missed it. (not to be offensive here)

It is not the lobby scene I was refering to. I 'm sure it was overwhelming with WDST's/dipoles.

It is the roof scene where Neo tries to dodge the bullets when the agent shoots at him. You hear te first bullet leave the gun from the center going to your left to pass you on the left and go further behind you on the left on a straight line just as Neo would have heared it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by crash827:

Horn speakers have a very specific and tight dispersion pattern - read PWK or any of the Klipsch literature for the last decade - it does not lend itself well to ambient effects without processor intervention. In fact, I can step 1ft to the right of any Klipsch speaker and the volume drops out the window. Fact of life.

---

Are U sure U are talking about WDST's/dipoles??

What would be the use of dipoles if they would act like monopoles??

quote:

---

Originally posted by crash827:

I don't know what processing equipment you have - although HornEd has a Yamaha - but your opinions appeared to be partially mired in the limitations of your processor. The Yamaha is not well-suited to WDTS, KSP-C6's, dipoles, or bipoles. You are not able to set the delays to proper levels, you are not able to specify speaker distances, and you are not able to specify 'type' of speaker. The processing should occur in the processor and if you spend enough money and select an appropriate, feature-rich processor (which specifically addresses speaker types), you will find WDST's/dipoles/KSP C6's to be every bit as effective as your processors time-delayed/phase manipulated use of direct speakers.

---

Oeps, did I mention that there is something wrong with my system without WDST's/dipoles? I don't think so. In fact I think that the soundtrack and the little processing (just the distance corrections, the speaker levels as in any HT) that my pioneer does creates a good environment in movies like it is meant to be(not forced by WDST's/dipoles).

I thougth that WDST's/dipoles would limit the processing of the sound by mechanical introducing ambient sound?? So that is two times you manipulate with the original source of the sound. First manipulate the sound (processing) to let the WDST's/dipoles sound good??? Indeed WDST's/dipoles are hard to match the other speakers.

Moreover, WDST's/dipoles are not that much dependend of the processing of the sound than their placement.

Big issue is definitly the placement of such speakers!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by crash827:

One other point. The KSP C6 is the same speaker as the KSP400's less the subwoofer, which is crossed-over at 80hz. The size of the cabinet does not make it weaker or stronger. I believe the same is true of the RC7 vs. the RF7's. Since you are employing 80hz cross-overs if following THX specs, it is overkill and useless to place a full size tower capable of 30hz in the center. It may look cool but you aren't using the 'stronger' part of the speaker so what did it buy you?

---

Well indeed, it looks cool. If I could the center was also an RF-3(maybe I will do the same as HornEd did).

Three reason to go with full size towers:

1. I don't like speakers hanging at walls.(IMHO)

2. Bookshelf speakers needs stands. The footprint is the same as is the total price.

3. Don't think speakers have to do much less when cut-off at 80Hz!!

------------------

-------------------------

Receiver: Pioneer VSX-909RDS

DVD: Pioneer DV-525

Screen: Thomson 46" RetroProjection

Front: RF-3 tFTP

Rear: RF-3 tFTP

Center: RC-3 tFTP

SubW: KSW-12

[HornEd]

USparc it sounds like we have had some similar experiences with surround sound and bass experimentation. I think the popular set-up disk Video Essentials inadvertently makes some negative points about diffuse sound when contrasted with the trends in audio mixing and 5.1 (and above) channels. That disk also makes a strong statement about having a center that matches the mains.

It will be interesting to monitor how wide dispersion speakers fair once "THX Surround EX" (a joint project of LucasFilm and Dolby Digital) becomes a force in the market place over the next few years. I am hard pressed to see how Dolby ProLogic and ProLogic II can hold on to market share riding essentially the same 4-2-4 horse of merging all sound into two channels and than parsing it out into logical multi-channels.

I think the DTS patent has forced the deep pocket duo of THX and DD to join forces to hold market share. But I shall continue to support DTS because they are the mavericks that pushed the envelope that so many of us now enjoy. -HornED

PS: Did you catch the Klipsch Exposition at the Brussels World's Fair a few decades ago?

[USparc]

quote:

---

Originally posted by HornEd:

PS: Did you catch the Klipsch Exposition at the Brussels World's Fair a few decades ago?

---

Unfortunatly no, It is only a few years back when my wings got klipsched. Klipsch is not very popular here in Belgium. The only dealer I know is A.E.D also listed here on the klipsch site.

A few decades ago?? I'm 24 years old!!

[HornEd]

Every once in awhile I am reminded that living in France and visiting Belgium was something I did from 1958-1964... and somewhere in the middle of all that I was 24!

During the run of the Fair (1958), the USSR launched Sputnik's III & IV. When I left Europe, the "Atomium" was still standing as a souvenir of the Fair... and the French hadn't chased the American Forces out of France. Hmmm, I guess the Klipsch Exhibit impressed me more than the general Belgian population.

Well, hopefully the Guild Halls are still standing and the Mannekin Pis is still flowing... and a few stalwart young men are bravely bringing horn culture to Belgium. It is a beautiful country and deserves beautiful "up-front" sound. -HornED

PS: I hope you are enjoying yourself at 24 as much as I did! Oh, yeah, and Klipsch Heritage helped the process right into matrimony!

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-11-2002 at 11:01 AM

[USparc]

quote:

---

Originally posted by HornEd:

Well, hopefully the Guild Halls are still standing and the Mannekin Pis is still flowing... and a few stalwart young men are bravely bringing horn culture to Belgium. It is a beautiful country and deserves beautiful "up-front" sound. -HornED

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Hey, thx HornED!!

[skonopa]

To WDST or not to WDST - ahh, the things holy wars are made of

Personally, I am leaning towards the HornED and USparc camp in this. However, in my situation, space and budgetary constraints just simply makes it impossible for me to do the ideal six matching speakers all the way around. I am trying to cram all this junk into a 14x14 foot room and all that I have now barely fits as is. I can't imagine what it would be like to fit 6 RF-7s into this room! As a result, I have to compromise by using RS-7s for surrounds, and RC-7s for the front and rear centers. Yeah, I could do what HornED did to a KLF-30 to an RF-7 and make it "sidways", but I do not feel comfortable to be mucking around with a $1000 speaker like that. I can hack on computer equipment all day, but hacking speakers like that is completely out of my league!

------------------

Steven Konopa

Fredericksburg, VA

Denon AVR3802

RF-3II (Front)

RC-3II (Center)

RC-3II (Rear)

RS-3II (A surrounds)

Infinity RS2000.5 (B surrounds - recycled)

REL Storm III (Subwoofer 1)

Yamaha YST-SW40 (Subwoofer 2 - recycled)

32 inch Sharp (TV)

JVC XV-S65GD (DVD)

[SteveB]

hey skonopa,

how do you like the RC7 as a rear center? i have the same setup as you, but have an old Kenwood tower filling in as that role for now. how in the heck did you get that sucker mounted on the wall??

steve

[skonopa]

Hey, Steve (I like that name )

hey skonopa,

how do you like the RC7 as a rear center? i have the same setup as you, but have an old Kenwood tower filling in as that role for now. how in the heck did you get that sucker mounted on the wall??

steve

I don't know yet - there is still an RC-3II back there for now - but it really does work out good as the rear - I can't wait to try an RC-7 back there myself! All of those 3s are probably going to be traded up next weekend for 7s all the way around. I am currently trying out a pair of RF-7s in the front and so far, I really like them over the RF-3II I was originally using, despite the almost 3 times the cost.

As to how I mounted it on the wall? Just mount a good bookshelf on the wall and place the speaker on the shelf and angle it (if necessary) into the sweet spot. Make sure you get a shelf kit that is rated at least 50 pounds and wide enough to accomdate the speaker. Go to any decent hardware/home improvment center and you can find a good shelf and mounting kit for around $15 to $20 (you could spend more, depending on how fancy you want to get). Unless there happens to be a convienently placed stud to mount directly into, good wallboard anchors/toggle bolts will suffice.

(I guess, I'll have to update my sig block when I finalize on my setup).

------------------

Steven Konopa

Fredericksburg, VA

Denon AVR3802

RF-3II (Front)

RC-3II (Center)

RC-3II (Rear)

RS-3II (A surrounds)

Infinity RS2000.5 (B surrounds - recycled)

REL Storm III (Subwoofer 1)

Yamaha YST-SW40 (Subwoofer 2 - recycled)

32 inch Sharp (TV)

JVC XV-S65GD (DVD)

This message has been edited by skonopa on 05-11-2002 at 02:05 PM

[T2K]

WDST speakers are not dipoles. WDST speakers are not bipoles. Type FAQ in the search bar below and get EDucated.

A speaker does no processing. A processor processes.

Imagine a garden hose. Attach the hose to a spigot and turn on the water. The water is dispersed in the direction that the hose is pointed. Go to Home Depot and buy one of those cheap zinc Y shaped garden hose tees. Stop by your favorite Mexican resturant and have a couple Margurita's along with your lunch. Go home and screw the cheap Y on the end of your garden hose. Turn on the water. Note the water is sprayed, or 'dispersed' over roughly a 180 degree area. Note the better coverage you get with the multiple drivers.

Keith

[HornEd]

Keith, most people know that bipole, dipole, tripole, AND "WDST" are ways of hooking up speakers to spread sound across the listening area over a wide area which also results in multiple reflections which together enhance ambient sound and tend to suppress localization. If someone has a doubt as to how they work, here is a quick refresher.

Bipoles and dipoles fire their dual speakers to the front and rear and have a null facing the sweetspot. This style of speaker was popularized in THX systems approved for home theaters.

KSP-S6's are shaped like a trapezoidal shape with the beveled edges holding speakers that fan the sound out at an angle to the sidewall giving greater coverage than bipoles or dipoles but having no speaker directly facing the sweetspot.

Tripoles and Klipsch "WDST" speakers are an improvement that adds a woofer on the short side of the trapezoid that faces the sweet spot to allow for greater localization of woofer range sound in the WDST and across the woofer and tweeter range in the Tripoles.

Some pre-amps have special processing that creates an ambient sound mix that adjusts the delay and reverberation that can be effectively reproduced by three or four monopole speakers across the rear array.

The trend over the next few years is likely to be influenced by "THX Surround EX"... a 7.1 approach based on expanding Dolby Digital 5.1 by adding two rear effects speakers that are fed by a monaural rear center channel. The purpose of the enhanced rear channels will be to mix ambient sound with localized sound so that four strategically placed monopole speakers can replace the odd assortment of mechanical wide dispersion speakers and wide variety of proprietary processor oriented approaches to create additional ambiance beyond that mixed into the sound track.

The speaker manuals and FAQ sections are concerned with what has been and NOT what is likely to be. With Dolby Labs and LucasFilms putting their money and influence together in an effort to standardize home movie sound... I believe it is worth watching.

Certainly, Sony's SDDS brings the ambiance aspect into the front array by adding a pair of additional near front side/surround speakers to expand the soundstage. This system is only available for professional theaters thus far.

My sentimental favorite, upstart DTS, won a patent on six-channel sound on which they have built which they have stretched into a 6.1 (seven channel) format. Dolby's ProLogic and ProLogic II systems which combine four (or more) tracks into two tracks to be logically decoded in a pre-amp which essentially began the wide dispersion speaker approach has been outflanked by DTS discrete sound with ambient mix.

Just like the future of center speakers... the future of side/surround, rear effects and front effects speakers will continue to get better... and return to strategically placed monopoles that more closely resemble the Left, Center, & Right Mains.

Of course, the garden hose analogy brings home the point of why having a mechanical system that has all the water going to a narrow area or add a "cheap" wye to spray the water over a vary wide area. The problem is that in movie sound, sometimes the water needs to be concentrated in one area or another... and sometimes it needs to be widely dispersed... and sometimes it has to be both at the same time. Three or four well placed monopoles with the right kind of source programming mix can handle the "multi-fauceted" assignment with ease... which seems to be deeper water than some can fathom.

Of course, the simplest way is to make like an audio ostrich, turn up the volume and bury one's head in the ambient "sand" that increasingly fills the peaks and valleys of sounds meant to be localized. Fortunately, we each have a choice as to how much sand we have in our ears. -HornED

PS: Sorry for the redundancy, but it seems some folks just don't seem to be clear on the past, present and probable future of the audio aspects of HT. And, PLEASE, understand that I am not a foe of KSP-S6 or WDST approaches to span this era of changing technologies... I am merely giving one person's opinion as to what works for me and where the HT audio trend lines seem to be. And, frankly, my mail from Forum members and lurkers encourage me to continue.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-11-2002 at 04:39 PM

[anarchist]

Ed,

The one thing you are missing I believe is why you need more and more speakers; because they suck at spreading the sound. Further, the latest specs and those in the future will continue to utilize multiple channels of matrixed sound. The biggest is 6.1 but you need two rear channels. Why? Because one can't spread the sound like it needs to because MOST of a movie soundtrack is not discrete sounds. You are not suppose to localize the sounds. That one S6 - does a far better job in the rear center and saves you one speaker. Certainly monopoles can do it, it just requires a ridiculous and redundant amount of monopoles - soon it will be 11.1. Because the mixers realize the effects aren't optimal with ONLY 6 speakers. The biggest lack of understanding (or simply failure to acknowledge) in your posts is your insistence S6s or WDSTs are reflective speakers - they are direct speakers which cover multiple zones in contrast to your monopoles and THEN by virtue of their design utilize reflections FAR more effectively than a monopole. An approach which utilizes both effectively is the best solution and provides the most flexibility.

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

The move to separates is coming, I can feel it.

[USparc]

HornEd,

I really enjoy reading your posts here!!

keep on going ...

crash827,

Do you really believe that WDST-speakers (or whatever non monopole speaker) are "direct speakers which cover multiple zones"?? If you claim that WDST-speakers do not use reflection (of the walls) how the hell can the sound reach your ears at the sweet spot?? Keith made a nice resemblance with the garden hose:"Note the water is sprayed, or 'dispersed' over roughly a 180 degree area. Note the better coverage you get with the multiple drivers." If you aim that water spray directly at me (in the garden) how much water is going to hit me without any reflection!!

You see. Infact the reflections causes a time delay what can be heard as ambient sound.

Now, monopole speakers creates the ambient sound by working together just like 2 channel audio can do. The time delays and phase shifts are all in the soundtrack.

For off-axis listeners a center channel is added.

No more then 6 speakers are needed to create ambient sound anywhere you want it to be. (Even if you would always sit in the middle 4 speakers would be enough)All is in the soundtrack!! In that way it is controled, not like it would be with sound "sprayers" which infact can work against each other.

------------------

-------------------------

Receiver: Pioneer VSX-909RDS

DVD: Pioneer DV-525

Screen: Thomson 46" RetroProjection

Front: RF-3 tFTP

Rear: RF-3 tFTP

Center: RC-3 tFTP

SubW: KSW-12

[HornEd]

Crash, I sincerely appreciate your courtesy and concern to help me see the error of my ways. I was allowed to demo some Klipsch WDST speakers to compare with my rear array of three KLF-30's in the HT room. My testing and tweaking has helped me help others on this Forum who really need WDST to overcome the acoustics challenges of their rooms. I just finished answering three emails that way in the past two days.

My confusion is that my carefully positioned rear array of KLF-30's with those big 12" woofers and with space to allow the exponential horns and horn tweeters cover their assigned segments of the rear array without the gaps... unless the source material is less than 5.1. 5.1 is automatically matrixed to 6.1 by my receiver. By actual A/B test, the KLF-30's easily outperformed their WDST counterparts... especially since they handled the tone and timbre aspects of side-to-side and back-to-front pans. The better the mix... the better the ambient sound. And on sound that should be localized... it's no contest... it's all KLF-30's.

If six identical monopole speakers can do this much for my HT... then it seems that it could do well for other people too. Indeed it has... particularly in rooms that are large enough to have Klipsch Heritage speakers.

Six KLF-30's, plus two KLF-C7's for Front Effects... supported by two SVS Ultras driven by 1,000 clean watts makes for a lot of sound ambient and discrete. How many people have 2 12" hi-SPL subwoofers, 12 12" woofers, 4 8" woofers, 8 exponential horns, and 8 horn tweeters flooding the room with rich Klipsch sound... even at 75dB! Those folks who have held the opinions that you and Keith share BEFORE they watched one of the 300 or so movies in my collection... soon find that my reality quickly overwhelms their supposition... and truth has once again been served.

Frankly, I would rather watch a good movie in my HT than in the SF Metreon... where I am invited often for special promotions out of Silicon Valley. Before I retired I led a company that was known for innovative computer development. I am no stranger to professional research and development. I have no need to stoke up my ego at the expense of my fellow Forum members. Yet, I am honor bound to persist because it seems that I have discovered truths about HT speakers and source technology that are generally unrecognized by most consumers.

If I saw a nu-tech bus coming down the road while you were crossing a hi-tech intersection... I would call out at the very least. And, your concern shows that you would do the same. That's a nice aspect of this Forum... there doesn't have to be a winner or a loser... just an opportunity for both of us to learn.

In summary, here's what I have learned so far on this road...

A. Ambiance: I believe that the trend toward better mixed movies progressively requires less widespread dispersion of sound. Those in my experience who have used dual monopole speakers slightly offset for side/surrounds require an increasingly smaller arc than 180° to achieve superb ambience.

B. Bass: I believe that ADEQUATE subwoofers provide better bass up to 80Hz than all but the higher end speakers. And, further, I recommend better Bass Management when the frequencies can be handled better by the speaker... particularly with horn loaded bass bins.

C. Center: I believe there is a reason for a Front Center that truly matches the Mains rather than being a scaled-down/tricked-up under achiever that will be asked to handle upwards of 75% of the sound.

D. Discrete: I believe that the trend toward better mixed movies for home use provides increasingly better ambience from three or four monopoles without losing the drama of compromised localization that can only come from discrete channels.

E. Effects: I believe that Front Effects speakers favorably broaden the soundstage and allow the Right and Left Mains to be closer to the video display to better sync dialogue and action with the Center Main and the Screen.

I have tried your way, Crash and hopefully my critical thinking powers that have led to several U.S. patents have not turned entirely to mush at age 64... Obviously, I am not the man that Mr. Paul was... but he inspires me to hold on to what I find true even if it may seem far fetched to others. That's what he did and that's what I am doing on the Forum of the company he founded.

Fortunately, thanks to Mr. Paul's example, my K-horn/Belle based music system is not quite so controversial. Well, this row has be way behind where I have to be before the sun goes down. And, thanks again for your stimulating words. It will be interesting to review our opinions a few years down the road. Peace. -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-11-2002 at 06:43 PM

[anarchist]

Hi Ed,

Enjoy reading your posts and getting insight into that thinking of yours - and I doubt it has turned completely into mush.

Your experiments and truth finding unfortunately dealt with WDST that did not accurately match your KLF30's. Clearly you would prefer KLF30s as surrounds and rears since they did match.

Your testing was also performed with a receiver that is tailored to monopoles and makes no allowances for anything else.

I think you place too much emphasis on discrete when the soundtracks and much of your channel information is matrixed.

12 12" woofers do absolutely nothing for you when you crossover at 80hz. You can derive that level of bass from monitors and thus have no need for KLF30's and the monster sound they can deliver. There are of course all the arguments over whether it is best to direct all sound to a subwoofer, employ multiple subwoofers, or use full towers.

There are no absolutes here. Period. It is a matter of what works best in your room, what series of speakers you own, and what material are you watch/listening to. I believe that is all I have ever tried to say and what I have discerned from Keiths posts.

I will be in California in August and maybe you could 'impress' me. Make it to Kentucky and I will do the same for you. Two different approaches and I am sure both have their merits.

As an aside, Keith had mentioned to me that a couple of KSP300's as the rear surrounds could really improve my HT. I would continue using the S6's as side surrounds. Of course, that would mean subwoofers in all four corners of the room which is 'certainly' a no-no to some. I am looking for them now and expect when the basement HT is complete - another set of 400s or 300s will assume their position. I then expect a SVS to hold down the 16 - 40 hz range would make my HT system complete.

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

The move to separates is coming, I can feel it.

[boa12]

HE: "First, anyone who says that cutting off a KLF-30 at 80Hz has wasted the KLF-30 has never heard what a properly positioned and

calibrated 7' tall SVS Ultra Twin Tower can do... If you did, you would swear that it was the KLF-30's kicking out that deep

driving, gut slamming bass. Only clean, crisp, non-directional bass can give you that kind of results. IMHO, it is more than

adequate and BETTER than all those Legends can muster by actual A/B comparisons. That's why I haven't rushed out for more

bass management for the home theater."

ed, boy take my eyes off for a day & see you're all still going. what i'm saying is that to a/b whether the 30s could lend a hand to the ultra tower is to try a processor that could take the high pass on all

those 30s down to say 50hz. don't know til u try & otherwise it's an assumption that it wouldn't sound better.

iow, yea the ultra is more than adequate, but u probably will get more bass quantity & quality w/ an adjustable crossover (maybe on the low pass too). like i've been beefin on those thx standards of a high fixed

crossover for some time now , what are the chances that a fixed 80hz - 100hz cross is best for all set-ups. just a fine tuning thing that made a big diff

for my room & finicky ears. part of that audio perfection (or closer to it) we strive for.

i still don't understand your khorn room. does it have

a sub now or is the ultra tower on wheels? i'd suggest

for any flexi-bass mgmt it be for the 30s/ultra ht room.

but then again the yammy has the front effects so that may be a dilemma, unless u could use the yammy processor w/ an external manager & power amp for everything but the f-effects.

then again it may not be worth the trouble & expense w/ the ultra. just that we don't know til we try it. btw, imo the strongest benefit for the 30s is that 2nd octave slam. when u high pass cut 'em at 80hz or above

it does take it away some. enough to notice a big dif for me w/ a 50hz cross, even w/ the velo hgs-18.

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My Home Systems Page

[anarchist]

Hey guys,

To throw a monkey wrench into this, I am posting this except from the Bryston site. Bryston has just released their SP1.7 and weren't very happy about the public demand (largely unwarranted, except for those with only monopoles ) for 6.1 and 7.1. To get insight from the industry, they questioned a Movie Scoring Engineer. WDST doesn't appear to be heading for extinction anytime soon. Go to www.bryston.ca for full details - look at the newsletter.

I thought you might find it of interest to see the response received from Dennis Sands one of the premium scoring engineers in Hollywood today.

Hi James,

I dont pay much attention to this 6.1, 7.1 stuff. It is applicable to sound effects only at best, and not really all that meaningful for that! I dont mix beyond the standard 5.1 format. Most home theaters can barely get set up for the 5.1 format, let alone 6.1 or 7.1. I have dubbed several movies in the 6.1 format, and failed to notice much benefit even on the dubbing stage. So its hard to get very interested in it for home theater. I have an awesome home theater which rivals 98% of public theaters, and its a 5.1 system. I have no desire to upgrade it to 6.1. I once mixed a score for 7.1, and it was a gigantic pain in the ***. It had no audio benefit whatsoever.

That would seem to indicate full range speakers for surrounds are frequently as meaningless as they were for ProLogic.

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Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

The move to separates is coming, I can feel it.

[USparc]

Aha, I like the response of Dennis Sands. I wouldn't upgrade either from my basic 5.1 system to any x.1 system in the room where it is now. He has indeed a point on placing issues even with 5.1 systems in a common "home room". Adding more speakers in such a room wouldn't indeed add that much "audio benefit (whatsoever)" in relation to the more price.

However this doesn't mean that WDST (or other sprayers) speakers should be used. They would spray the sound all over the place with multipe reflection which leads to an overpowered uncontroled overwhelming sound with no localization at all.

Some will like this, ... I and others don't.

And there is indeed the timber matching, very important. Crash, did you here the bullet pas you on the left or was it become suddenly an other bullet (lost in space).(Was hoping for some reaction)

Ok, as long as we enjoy our systems either in its own way. Peace.

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Receiver: Pioneer VSX-909RDS

DVD: Pioneer DV-525

Screen: Thomson 46" RetroProjection

Front: RF-3 tFTP

Rear: RF-3 tFTP

Center: RC-3 tFTP

SubW: KSW-12

[boa12]

yea as w/ the flexible bass mgmt, a capable processor can sill make 6.1/7.1 a nice addition even to 5.1 mixes. just one of those nice lil extras that doesn't hurt none. & again, if u haven't tried it, then it's it's just an assumption, even in one's own case.

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My Home Systems Page

[T2K]

You are exactly right boa. I would like to know which WDST speakers USparc used in HIS HT room upon which he bases his opinion.

'The cost' and 'average' aren't words I'd use to describe most audio fans found on this forum.

Keith