bob carver sues?

[REFSELLER]

I have heard rumors for some time that bob carver is sueing some sub mnfgrs for copying some of the technology that he patented in his small sub...besides the mirage ss1500 ,can anyone give me a list of what subs were/are involved and specs/opinions on them....Anyone doing it as well ?better? really patent infringement?etc....

[TheEAR]

Bob Carver is doing well to sue the copycats,cheap immitators who want to ride for free.I know some subs were an almost copy of Bob Carver units,and claimed to better Bob's designs! HA BS and more BS the so called designers copied the working principles of the Sunfire subs and even atempted to copy Bob's amplifiers(BTW Bob is THE MAN when it comes to efficient amp design and all others aspire to reach his level).

As a proud owner of FOUR of Bob's subs(Signature,Mark II,Junior and Carver KS)I can say his subs do perform and are trouble free(never had any problems).

The Energy Microstar was a flop,the amp clipped like a hoe and at anything more then medium output the sub started to distort!What a joke

The Klipsch LF10,while alot better then the Microjoke also did clip when driven hard.And even the only real competitor(Velodyne)had problems with their microsubs(HGS10 and 12),when driven hard the subs would just die(amp).Now seems the HGS10 and 12 are much more trouble free.

Some like the Mirage(API)Substrata upper model was based so much on the Sunfire Mark II it was screaming "LOOK MA API BUILT A MARK II".

At least they should have used two radiators or change the design a little bit more.

Still the Ssunfire TrueSub is the original microsub,the true microsub with big output at 25Hz.Per cubic inch there is no competition.Sunfire is the microsub champion followed by Velodyne and all the rest are far behind.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[soundog]

Rumor had it that the Klipsch LF-10 was withdrawn because of a treat of a law suit from Carver.

------------------

Soundog's HT Systems

[REFSELLER]

The SS1500 does use 2 drivers; 1 active and 1 passive (both 10"), but what I'm curious about is what design element(s) it (the Mirage) and others borrowed from the markII ...AMPS ?(ARE THEY DIFFERANT THAN WHAT ANYONE ELSE HAD EVER BUILT?) OR is it that Carver simply tried to patent the IDEA of a small sub?...

It has always been my impression that one only gets a small sub because of space in the room, and that if the sub has to be small you get one hell of an amp just to fight the problems inherent with a small enclosure design...????

I know that this may be unpopular to say here but I have heard many of the smaller subs in many well set-up systems and always felt that small enclosures were a sacrafice.....

[REFSELLER]

Anyone?

comprehensive list of Carver clones?

small enclosures/ big amps/ new designs?

specs on these units?

[TheEAR]

Hmm you want Carver "clones"

Well here are a few...

Mirage(API) SubStrata1500 (a clone if there ever was one,its too obvious if you saw the sub you will know)

The Mirage SubStrata1000 is more of a Velodyne HGS clone,less the output of the velo.

Paradigm also tried to build some the BassCube 10 and 12.Never released or even anounced on the Paradigm.ca site!I saw them,he he.Yes sir lets say I know the right folks.More of Velodyne HGS clones.

Velodyne HGS and SPL(the design may vary but guess who inspired them> DUH Bob Carver and his magic SUB BASS cube the original Sunfire TrueSub(the one that started the micro sub revolution).

Rel Q150,Q200(e) and Q400.The Q200(e) uses the same(almost?)driver as the Sunfire MarkII in a sealed cabinet driven by a more classic MosFet 200W amp.

Pinnacle BabyBoomer,two active 8" woofers driven by a 600W digital amp.Not really a copy here just a original spin on it.

I would not call M&K VX100 and MX700 microsubs copies since M&K has a loooong tradition of sub deign and they make minature subs since the dawn of subwooferdom.

Still none of their small subs even came close to the real TrueSub in output at 25Hz.

The bottom line is Bob Carver created the micro sub with real sub bass power and many were inspired(not to say copied)his idea.Hey you cant reinvent the wheel.

Bob Carver is a maverick and genius designer,both amplifier design and subwoofer design.A great idea will always be copied or will inspire many

Nuff said

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TVodhanel]

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F5937074

TV

[REFSELLER]

TV , THANKS!!!!!

EAR, O.K. ,now without the running commercial for bob,

whose "copies" are good/ have nearly the same output(dare I say better?).........

[TheEAR]

Great microsubs are anything Velodyne HGS10 and 12,SPL 800 to 1200.

Per cubic inch Bob Carver subs ahve the most sub bass output.None can surpass 30Hz output of a Super Junior(competes with the SPL800 and trounces the SPL800),the Mark II(now Mark IV)has better output then SPL1000 and HGS10.And the Sunfire Sig.bests all microsubs in 3 ouput at 30Hz and below.

So who bests Bob Carver's micro creations in SPL? NOBODY HA

That is why I own them all(well not the Super Junior ..just the Junior and the rest of the gang)

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[boa12]

so anybody that put out smaller subs than what they had

after '97 violated carver? j/k guess we'll let the courts decide.

------------------

My Home Systems Page

[TBrennan]

While the execution of the Carver sub was new the theory behind it is very old. Woofers such as the Carver were described by Olson, Davis and Cohen as far back as the 1950s at least. They never built them because the high-powered amps needed weren't available then and they thought such a woofer would be a bad idea in any case.

[TheEAR]

"bad idea in any case."

LOL

The Sunfire Signature beats much much larger subs in output and deep bass.All this in a very compact cabinet,so is this a bad idea? Or maybe a good idea is to build a sub in a fridge box. LOL

Anyone who is not capable of building a challenging project will claim its a bad idea.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[REFSELLER]

O.K., HOW about the test measuremrnts for the other small subs you mentioned at 30h/35hz (hopefully from an unbiased source)...................

[TheEAR]

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/main.html

Go to the master index,then subwoofer index and then click on the Velodynes and Sunfire subs,they measured the maximum output at 31.5Hz.This is a good indication of a sub output.

FYI they obtained 112dB at 31.5Hz from the HGS12 and 117dB also at 31.5Hz from the Sunfire Signature(both are priced tabout the same and take about the same volume)

117dB at 31.5Hz is very impressive any way you look at it,and considering the box internal volume its amazing.

112dB at 31.5Hz is quite a bit too

Notice the HGS series will draw over 10 amps before they reach these levels.As the Sunfire will surpass this output with less then half the consumption!

No bias here,do take note I own both Sunfire and Velodyne.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[cakid]

TheEAR,

Question for ya. You mentioned you own the Sunfire and also the Klipch RSW-10. I was always intrigued by the Sunfire (but do not own one). Do you have a preference between these two subs?

Thanks,

CAKid

[TheEAR]

Damn right I own Sunfire,and a boat load of Sunfire and Klipsch.

Ok let me tell you how I see it.

The RSW10 is a fine compact subwoofer,its well built.Its looks quite good and performs well.The sub bass is very tight and punchy.Its about as musical sub as you can find(at any price).

Used with small sats like the RB3 or RB5's this little bugger really shines.And works wonders with Totem ROKK and TABU.Should work well with a wide range of sat speakers.

The RSW10 low bass output is nothing spectacular when you consider how much output Sunfire subs belt out from minuscule cabinets(where most of the internal volume is stolen by the drivera and its huge magnetic structure).

To put things into perspective the Sunfire Super Junior bests the RSW10 on true sub bass(around 30Hz).

And the Sunfire Super Junior is as tiny as compact subs get,the other tiny minature is the Velodyne SPL800.Let me tell you the SPL800 eats dust when facing the Super Junior in a 30Hz output competition.

And to carify someting both sound about the same(quality)I head so many clown claim Sunfire subs are not defined and slow,its BS in all caps.Sunfire subs simply fall off starting at 60Hz and up,they cant give a real 100Hz.Heck its a sub no,not a woofer.Sunfire subs shine when set to 50Hz and below.

If you would take the Sunfire Signature then you reach output levels at 30Hz surpassed only by BIG BIG cylinders or BIG cubes like the Revel B15 or HGS15(a tiny bit) and HGS18!That is how much punch the tiny Signature packs.And open the box and what you see inside is a super duty driver with a huge magnet for a 12" driver.The amp is very compact(I was shocked to see how little space these Carver amps take).

So to answer your question

I prefer Sunfire Subs to Klipsch subs.Based on their rugged construction,quality conectivity and bass output that would be considered witchcraft a few years ago from such tiny cabinets.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[REFSELLER]

Ear,

any experiance w/ the ss1000 or ss1500?

[cakid]

Thanks theEAR for the lowdown on the Sunfire. I know I was impressed when I listened to it a while back. It is amazing that you can get such intense low frequencies out of a little box like that. I agree about the insignificance of output at higher frequencies. The woofers in the fronts can pick that up.

FYI - I got a response from Klipch on the power rating. They claimed the RSW-12 put out 1000 watts RMS continuous. I mentioned that the maximum power consumption of the amplifier section of the sub was only 720 watts. Then I asked for the RMS output again. They said, "It's 1000 watts RMS". Now it's time to see if there are any regulations on specifying power output (like there used to be). If there are no more regulations, I probably can't do a damn thing about it. I simply wanted them to be honest with me.

CAKid

[boa12]

if they're regulations then many from japan to the us aren't in compliance. just guidelines i do believe. at least for receivers/power amps. some are at 1khz, not all channels driven, some even state 6ohms to jack up the wattage, & but others are good 20-20khz, 8 ohms, all channels driven.

know the above doesn't apply to a sub amp, except the impedance. that's probably where klipsch got it - using a lower impedance. i'd be interested if the ftc or such has any regulations they MUST follow at all.

------------------

My Home Systems Page

[TheEAR]

"Ear,

any experiance w/ the ss1000 or ss1500?"

You mean the Mirage SubStrata series,right.Yes I did listen to the SS1000.Its a very musical little sub,very much like the Energy MicroStar 10.Both are tight and musical,they just cant belt competitive SPL when compared to Velodyne HGS or Sunfire Mark II.

At higher SPL the API microsubs amps just clipped in a nasty way.Energy claimed the sub was damaged in shipping! Well,BS the sub was flawless(on the outside).

They did not get their amp right and it did clip in the most nasty way when pushed.

So long for Bob Carver inspired subs

At least Velodyne has a real competitive and working products.

TheEAR(s) Now theears