F-30s with/without sub

[Magneto_Plasmoid]

Hey guys,

I've had a pair of F-30s as my fronts for a little while now and can't be happier with their performance, I was however, curious as to their performance without a subwoofer for music. I've seen a few posts on the forum from people saying they have reasonable bass performance without a sub for music, yet when I set my marantz to source direct the sound seems thin and not as full as when the sub is on. Is there anything I could be doing wrong? Or would adding a seperate amp to my system make much of a difference?

Thanks for the help

[JasonJCarney]

Well I have owned F-3's so I have a little experience with your situation. What AVR do you have? My Onkyo has a "double bass" setting in the speaker setup. When turned to "on" it will send the LFE signal to the front speakers. Not sure if your AVR has a similar setting. Are your fronts set to full band? Within the speaker setup you should be able to select that you don't have a sub.... has that been done? Power will absolutely make a difference when your trying to produce more bass. Although most AVR's when used in stereo mode should get you at least 110 watts so that should be enough to be able to create decent bass. This of course will not compare to a subwoofer but my F-3's did a fine job at producing bass. Could be a slightly different crossover in the newer synergy model too? I didnt look at the specs of your F-30's.

[Magneto_Plasmoid]

Thanks for the reply mate. I have set the fronts to Large/full band in my receiver and turned the sub off. When you say they did a fine job, you were happy to listen with no sub or still found that the subwoofer was better at the lower frequencies? If I add bass manually through the receivers tonal options is that going to help or just unaturally colour the sound? From what I've been told the F-30s had an improved crossover from the F-3s but shouldn't be a massive difference

[cornfedksboy]

What AVR do you have? My Onkyo has a "double bass" setting in the speaker setup. When turned to "on" it will send the LFE signal to the front speakers.

Per the Onkyo TX-NR708 users manual, "With the Double Bass Function you can boost bass output by feeding bass sounds from the front left, right, and center channels to the subwoofer."

[JasonJCarney]

Well I have owned F-3's so I have a little experience with your situation. What AVR do you have? My Onkyo has a "double bass" setting in the speaker setup. When turned to "on" it will send the LFE signal to the front speakers. Not sure if your AVR has a similar setting. Are your fronts set to full band? Within the speaker setup you should be able to select that you don't have a sub.... has that been done? Power will absolutely make a difference when your trying to produce more bass. Although most AVR's when used in stereo mode should get you at least 110 watts so that should be enough to be able to create decent bass. This of course will not compare to a subwoofer but my F-3's did a fine job at producing bass. Could be a slightly different crossover in the newer synergy model too? I didnt look at the specs of your F-30's.

They did a fine job in my room (11x17x8) but they did not compare to using my sub 12.

Cornfed....you are correct. The on screen instructions were incomplete and I misunderstood them. I'll go into my menu next time I get a chance and reread the OSD. Now I am wondering exactly what it says. Here is a quote from my owners manual that confirms your quote:

With the Double Bass function, you can boost bass output by feeding bass sounds from the front left and right,

center channels to the subwoofer.

* If you’re using THX-certified speakers, select “Off(THX)”.

[cornfedksboy]

The bass output from your speakers will be dependent on your room accustics and speaker placement for one. Too far away from a corner will make it thin. Too close and it will be boomy. A large room is harder to fill with bass than a small room.

I would bet that added bass will drastically color the music, but it may be just what you need based on your room. Certainly give it a try.

From my experience, I noticed a HUGE difference in bass going from a 110 wpc Onkyo to a 125 wpc monoblock. It doesn't sound like alot, but the way watts are rated can be deceiving. Your Marantz, for instance might be rated based on a 1 KHz tone, but could have drastic fall off in the lower frequencies.

Lastly, a decent subwoofer will ALWAYS provide more bass than a tower speaker. To get a truly full range speaker, ususally you need a powered sub in the tower (with lots of watts), or you're going to drop a big chunk of change.

[Magneto_Plasmoid]

Thanks alot for all the input guys, everytime I log in here I learn something new about audio:)

So what then is the advantage to running a poweramp or monoblock? I see alot of people in the forums here have both an av receiver and an amp as well in their setups. Is it worth doing with my current setup? And are the advantages more for home theatre or stereo listening?

[cornfedksboy]

Well, in general, the receiver does EVERYTHING. And all of that processing, switchiing, software, etc. takes up space, generates heat, and basically takes away from the amps. Also, by putting all of those amps in the receiver, they share some switching, components are smaller than ideal, and it's all around lower quality than a seperate power amp...which does one thing...provide power to your speaker. So, if you are using a receiver and you have two channels playing, you can feel fairly confident that you are getting roughly the amount of power the manufacturer specifies, however, as you add channels into play, the watts per channel can drop dramatically! A 140 wpc Yammy might only produce 20 watts per channel with all 7 channels driven. Some brands do better than others, specifically HK which tests their receivers to poweramp specs. On top of that, most name brand manufacturers (Harmon Kardon is a notable exception) use a specific rating system which is; watts driven into 1 channels at a 1KHz frequency for a VERY short amount of time, and can produce sound at less than 0.1% THD.

To the contrary, Poweramps (and higher end receivers) will generally test their speakers over the full range of sound (20 Hz-20 KHz) over a longer time frame, and they are capable of producing a much lower Total Harmonic Distortion and higher Dynamic peaks. The end result is that a comparably powered power amp will outperform the competing receiver by producing more watts over the entire frequency range and will have less distortion. What you hear is more detailed highs, cleaner mid-bass, and deeper, tighter bass. Also you can play your system louder if you so desire and you get much cleaner sound when there is a dynamic volume change.

A monoblock will simply further isolate the simplicity of the design...one power source, one amp, one channel...theoretically this should have cleaner sound, but I doubt you could hear it versus a 5-channel poweramp.

All of the above advantages work for music and HT, however, if you are running a beefy receiver and only use 2-channel music, the changes would be minimal. For a 7 channel HT, by using an external amp you can get clean sound in the front, decrease the strain on your amp and effectively increase the power to your surrounds.

[Youthman]

corn has some great advice [Y]

I'll just add my thoughts from my build thread (see my signature) after adding my Parasound Amp.

First off, this amp is a beast. It weighs 85 pounds. It has two
handles on front and two on back that aid in lifting the unit. The back
has 5 speaker outputs, 5 line inputs and 5 input levels. It has more
heat sinks than a Florida Gator has teeth.



From what I can see, this amp is built like a tank, rugged and durable.
It's not flashy like the Emotiva but the great thing is that with it's
simple designed faceplate, no lights are seen through the grill cloth on
the cabinet door.



With 220 watts x 5, the Parasound adds even more bottom end to the
RF-83's, giving them more authority in the bass region. I used to not
enjoy listening to music in 5.1 or 7ch stereo but with the new amp, it
really brings the surround channels to life. With movies, the surrounds
seem more alive and engaged. At high volumes, the amp has no problems
maintaining the integrity of the source material. The sound never gets
harsh or muddy. Crystal clear no matter what volume. Musical has more
separation of instruments than with the Yamaha alone.

Had some friends over this weekend to watch Avatar. It was a great
movie both visually and audibly. Lots of detail in the movie,
especially in the surround channels. The Parasound performed rock solid
throughout the entire movie.



I also had a friend over this weekend for some 2ch listening. It was
his first time hearing the Parasound in my system. We both agreed that
the Parasound added tighter bass response as well as more separation of
music instruments. Subtleties were now definitive. I used to have to
crank the RF-83's to a descent volume to get the full sound I like.
With the Parasound, I can now listen to it at moderate levels and you
still get the depth, clarity and separation that makes 2ch listening
worth listening to. I'm definitely very pleased with the purchase.