amusingisthedawn Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 So my friends and I have been ripping CD's to flac files to create an ultimate library, eventually to be put on a NAS. I've been convinced to buy a Sonos player to set inline with my current setup. I'm not a fan of the current DAC in my AVR and I'm not a fan of what's inside the Sonos player. Before I do anything I wanted to get some opinions on if I should buy a 300-500 dollar outboard DAC or if I should buy a new AVR with a decent DAC in it. I ask about a AVR because I'm due for a new one and would like more connectivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I just purchased a MusicStreamer 2 DAC from Amazon after reading threads here and elsewhere about it's performance, and anxiously awaiting arrival. My quest is to bypass the soundcard in computer to my music system. Cost is $149 and seems to be all the rave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusingisthedawn Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 Please let me know how it works out! I am so mixed on the actual use of a DAC. Some people say it's ridiculous and it doesn't do anything, and some say the complete opposite. I just know that if I use my DVD player or PS3 via hdmi, rca, or digitalL, they all sound horrible compared to using the internal DAC on my Denon DCD 3520. So, something in the mix there makes something sound better. I know the DAC in the sonos costs about 10 dollars. Now, the one in my Denon 2808 isn't awesome by any means, but obviously better...however, it sounds like total crap when I use the Denon player with a digital cable vs the rca cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I will do it! If only half of what reviewers say they hear is true this is going to sound nice... I know the specs are good enough for me...24 bit/96...if this works out, you may want to look at their plus model for even better specs and features. I got shipping free with [sn] mail... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annt Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Just wanted to give you the heads up about the Sonos and an issue I had with it before you purchase. Sonos doesnt publically acknowledge this, but there is a limit on the amount of music you can have in your muic library. Its not a set number as its dependent on a combination of file size + file name + tag information. People have reported the limit being anywhere from 40,000 to 65,000 files. I managed to max out at about 54,000 files. The issue is a hardware one, so even an update in the future will not fix this. I eventually switched to the Logitech Squeezebox system and it works so much better than the Sonos and has absolutely no limits on files. I guess if you plan on having a small music collection then this might not be an issue for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 The Emotiva XDA-1 is right popular with some folk with it's flexibilityand remote: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/digital-analog-converters/1282-introduction-to-the-emotiva-xda-1-differential-reference-dac-for-the-audiophile.html For $349 or less RCA / Phono are a better sounding connection than optical to some ears, speaking to your Denon. I will be using DAC with USB on my system for dedicated 2 channel to my Klipsch. We shall hear what we hear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk49 Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I managed to max out at about 54,000 files Please excuse my ignorance on this subject, are you saying you were limited to 54,000 songs? I have had the Sonos system for about 4 months and have been satisfied with the service and easy of music management, but was unaware of the "limit". tk49 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annt Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I managed to max out at about 54,000 files Please excuse my ignorance on this subject, are you saying you were limited to 54,000 songs? I have had the Sonos system for about 4 months and have been satisfied with the service and easy of music management, but was unaware of the "limit". tk49 Yes, I was limited to 54,000 songs in my music collection. The number is different for everyone though, but it seems to range from 40,000 to 65,000 files and is largely dependent on how you name your files and how they are tagged (includes embedded artwork). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusingisthedawn Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 65,000 files is how many actual (average length) compact discs? Assuming they are lossless files. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 65,000 files is how many actual (average length) compact discs? Assuming they are lossless files. it depends on the cd. a cd can have 99 tracks. it can have 99 sub tracks on each track. each sub track can have 41 or more data elements. thats why there is a variance on reports of max songs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 You'll be listenning in stereo without the sub I presume? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusingisthedawn Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 Stereo,with the sub. I plan on buying an SVS SB13 Ultra...so, yea, I want to use it when I listen to music [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 In that case, you can't get around the DAC in your receiver. If you get an external DAC and feed analog to your receiver, the receiver will redigitize the analog signal in order to apply bass management filters. You are better off feeding the signal digitially to your receiver to avoid the multiple conversions. I use XBMC in a PC, fed through a sound card that has digital coax output to my receiver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusingisthedawn Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'm not sure I understand. How is it much different than running my CD player with RCA cables to utilize it's internal DAC. I still have LFE out of the receiver to the sub and everything works as normal. If I use an external DAC, if it's with a CD player or Sonos, I'm not sure I see the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Same issue using RCA output from a CD player. The signal has to be redigitized to apply bass management (filter out the bass from what goes to the mains and send it to the sub instead). That isn't done in the analog domain. The only sane way to use an external DAC is: digital source -> DAC -> preamp -> amplifier -> stereo speakers. Where preamp and amplifier can be an AVR. Everything that happens after the DAC is analog. If you use a sub, you do: digital source -> DAC (converts it to analog) -> AVR (DAC converts it to digital) -> low-pass-filter -> DAC converts to analog -> sub amp -> sub. .......................................................................................................................-> high-pass filter -> DAC converts to analog -> amp -> speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusingisthedawn Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'm so lost. So are you saying that even when using RCA outputs from my CD player, the Denon AVR is bypassing the analog inputs and making them digital, so in sense it is NOT using the DAC in the CD player? How is it that the sound from the CD player is 15 times better when I use RCA outputs, than when I use a Digital output? I would figure the DAC is still what is making the sound better, or is it something else in the CD player? BTW, XBMC looking really amazing. The thing that is so awesome with Sonos is the interface apps for smart phones. I would prefer not to listen to music in the room down the hall when the controller is the computer is that far away. Althought, I may be speaking too soon, I'm still doing research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 I'm so lost. So are you saying that even when using RCA outputs from my CD player, the Denon AVR is bypassing the analog inputs and making them digital, so in sense it is NOT using the DAC in the CD player? No, not at all. How is it that the sound from the CD player is 15 times better when I use RCA outputs, than when I use a Digital output? I would figure the DAC is still what is making the sound better, or is it something else in the CD player? If you are using a direct mode on the AVR that bypasses bass management and the sub, then it is fine to use the DAC on the CD player and the RCA connections. But if you engage bass management, then that is done in the digital domain. So if you use the DAC in the CD player and RCA analog connections, then the AVR is using another DAC to digitize it again to process it, and using yet another DAC to recreate the new analog signal. That's three DACs in the chain. BTW, XBMC looking really amazing. The thing that is so awesome with Sonos is the interface apps for smart phones. I would prefer not to listen to music in the room down the hall when the controller is the computer is that far away. Althought, I may be speaking too soon, I'm still doing research. I use my Android phone on my wifi as a control-remote for XBMC. The computer running XBMC is on another floor altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusingisthedawn Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 I just downloaded the PS3 media server, so I'll try that out since I already have it. Using XBMC and such is another topic all together. To get back to the DAC issue. I use my Denon is Direct Mode when I listen to music, always. However, I still have the subwoofer involved when in Direct Mode and also when in Pure Direct. What is happening there then? I'm not sure your theory is really all that substancial then. If the Denon is using 2 more DACs after I already use the DAC in my Cd player, then so what...The logic must be grey and not so black and white, because there is a HUGE substancial gain in using the RCA outputs from the Cd player to bypass the DAC in the AVR...but I'm guessing that the DAC that does the work after the inputs from the Cd player, do not really alter the signal from the DAC in the Cd player...because it sounds awesome. Do you understand where I'm coming from? While technically you are correct, the converting after the fact to use bass mgmt must be a different kind of conversion than what happens inside the Cd player. My head spins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 The job of the DAC is the same whether in the CD player or AVR. Perhaps one of Pure Direct or Direct Mode don't engage the sub? Or perhaps the signal sent to the speaker is "large" rather than "small" in those cases (i.e. no high-pass filter)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusingisthedawn Posted March 26, 2012 Author Share Posted March 26, 2012 The sub is engaged in both modes. If the speakers where set to large and there was no high-pass filter, how does that make a difference in regards to the DAC (or the 1 of 3 DACs) I understand the job is the same, but there must be other logic involved because some DACs sound better than others. You seem to be getting at the point that they do not make a difference. And, by your methods, you are suggesting to use a digital cable from my cd player instead of using rca cables, to avoid multiple conversions...however, when I do that, it sounds like ***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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