Home Theater Protection Advice

[hotsho111]

I recently purchased a showroom RF-83 system and am working on setting everything up (I'll throw pics up eventually when it's done) and was looking for some advice on protecting the system. The RF-83 will be powered by an RX-A810 receiver (no amps yet) and the TV will be a 51-55 inch plasma (still making my final decision on which one). The system will also have some standard devices attached...blu-ray player, game consoles, media devices...etc

As a start, I'm mainly trying to protect the system from voltage spikes/sags, brown outs, black outs, and worst case scenario, lightning strikes. I'm in an apartment with crappy landlords so rewiring the place is kinda out of the question.

I had originally planned on just getting a decent power strip but in doing some research the general consensus was by the time these kicked in the damage was probably already done. They said if you wanted better protection to try looking at a UPS.

I did a lot of research on them but didn't want to spend the rediculous amount of money for an online UPS and was going to pull the trigger on the CP1500PFCLCD. Before I did I did a bit more research and it looks like this type of UPS won't really regulate the power output and it only kicks in when the voltage jumps or drops out of some specified range. When it's in this range, it's as if the unit is plugged directly in to the wall. People discussing these issues said in order to fix these you should look at a line conditioner.

I know a lot of people think line conditioning is a bit of a hoax, which it very well could be, but to me the theory behind it at least sounds logical. I had looked at some of the panamax line conditioners but the only one that does voltage regulation is the m5400-pm which is 750 bucks. These will also protect against surges and lightning strikes (I think) but they cut the power when things get really out of hand. Critics of these said they weren't really worth it as most electronics are designed to handle crappy power anyway and doesn't really handle the situation when power goes out completely.

It seemed like a combination of UPS and line conditioner might help and the one I was looking into was the APC J35B. Anyone have any experience with this? It is apparently designed for home theater systems but I haven't seen any reviews of it. I've seen some of the J25 which people seem to like.

After doing all the research I'm still kinda stumped on what I should get. I'm not really concerned with needing to run everything when the power goes out for extended periods, just being able to shut it down if it's on and isolate it when I'm gone.

I don't exactly feel 100% confident protecting a several thousand dollar home theater system with a 50 dollar surge protector.

Long story short, what is you're power protection set up for your home theater systems?

[Vital]

I have the Panamax 5400-EX and I enjoy knowing that my stuff is protected. To me it's money well spent, I can't tell you how many times I have had my power surge and come on and off really fast over the last few years. It's better safe than sorry IMO. In the grand scheme of things it's not much money.

[hotsho111]

I have the Panamax 5400-EX and I enjoy knowing that my stuff is protected. To me it's money well spent, I can't tell you how many times I have had my power surge and come on and off really fast over the last few years. It's better safe than sorry IMO. In the grand scheme of things it's not much money.

I completely agree, I'm just trying to figure out what to get.

I had looked at the Panamax line conditioners, but they don't have any backup and cut out when things become a bit out of control.

I stumbled across the APC S15 which looks like a good choice (and it is going to fit where I'd like to put it)

[Beechnut]

I use a Belkin PF60. Got it for $139 from buy.com after a forum member alerted us to it. http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/152368/1590544.aspx#1590544

[hotsho111]

I think I've narrowed it down to the Panamax M5400-PM or the APC J35B or APC S15. The S15 seems to be a popular AV conditioner/battery backup where the panamax is just a conditioner.

Anyone have any experience with any of these?

[hotsho111]

With a regular line conditioner (and no backup) would there be issues watching something and the power going out? The line conditioner is pretty much going to cut power since there isn't anything to regulate. Is there a chance this could damage anything?

I'm not really concerned with needing to keep everything running when the power goes out I just want to minimize the risk of damage if it goes out.

[grimmreapersound]

Check out the Brickwall conditioners/limiters. They are outstanding, The 8 outlet home theater unit is about 250$. I have been using a Brickwall for my home recording studio and never had any problems for over ten years now.

[Beechnut]

With a regular line conditioner (and no backup) would there be issues watching something and the power going out? The line conditioner is pretty much going to cut power since there isn't anything to regulate. Is there a chance this could damage anything?

I'm not really concerned with needing to keep everything running when the power goes out I just want to minimize the risk of damage if it goes out.

This only matters if the item needs a cool down before power is fully removed. For instance I have an older 55" LCD projection. If you push the power button off, it does a cool down for the lamp. If the item doesn't need a cool down, you'll be fine without an UPS.

[hotsho111]

Thanks Beechnut, that's what I thought.

I think I'm going to go with the Panamax M5400-PM...if I can find one at a good price

[Digitaldad]

Don't overlook the APC H15. May not have battery back up or the highest equipment protection amount but can be had for less than $180 via online specials. Black face model typicaly sells at higher price than silver. Voltage fluctuates drastically in my neighborhood and the avr function maintains constant output voltage. The front panel light can be dimmed or turned off to suit your preference.

[westom]

I'm not really concerned with needing to keep everything running when the power goes out I just want to minimize the risk of damage if it goes out.

You are worrying about myths. Power outages do not damage electronics. International design standards over 40 years ago had this expression in the region of all low and no voltages: No Damage Region. And in all capital letters. Because low voltage or voltage loss does not harm electronics. If that was untrue, then someone could define each component harmed by power off with spec numbers from datasheets. Nobody can because power loss does not cause damage.

Noise is also made irrelevant by circuits already inside. Electronics convert the 'cleanest' AC power into the 'dirtiest' in the house. Then 'cleans' that 'dirtiest' electricity. Any 'cleaning' by a line conditioner is completely undone inside electronics. Because superior line conditioning already exists inside. That is the subjective statement. Now for what every answer must always include - the numbers.

First incoming AC is converted to much higher DC voltages exceeding 300 volts. That high voltage DC is converted to high voltage radio wave spikes. Making electricity that 'dirty' is why low voltage DC to electronics is so stable. Did others who recommend line conditioners forget to provide those numbers? Any 'cleaning' by a conditioner is completely undone to make electronics so robust.

Same applies to transient protection. For example, a UPS takes milliseconds to switch to battery. Meanwhile, harmful spikes are done in microseconds. Your research should have provided these numbers. How does a UPS that responds so slow stop transients done in microseconds? It doesn't. Myths, promoted by subjective reasoning (also called junk science), claim a UPS does protection. Where are UPS spec numbers that claim that hardware protection? Those numbers do not exist.

View UPS numbers that do claim protection. Hundreds of joules. Meanwhile, harmful spikes are hundreds of thousands of joules. If reasoning is subjective, then hundreds of joules is 100% protection. If reasoning is based in reality and perspective, then hundreds of joules is near zero (useless) protection. Those hundreds of joules are just enough above zero so that advertising (and other outright lies) tell you it is 100% protection. They need you to think subjectively. Honesty always demands numbers.

All electronics contain superior protection. Your concern is transients that can overwhelm that protection. Nothing posted (ie Panamax) even claim to protect from typically destructive transients. But again, where are the Panamax numbers? Never posted because it is near zero protection selling at massive (obscene) profit margins.

Appliance protection means a solution rated at least 50,000 amps. Such devices are in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. How much was the Panamax for only one appliance? 100 years of well proven science says all appliances are protected for $50. First unlearn advertising and dispose of every subjective myth. And then learn the numbers.

Low voltage is a threat to motorized appliances. A UPS to avert low voltage damage must be on appliances at risk - the furnace, refrigerator, and dishwasher. Ideal (low) voltage for electronics may be a harmful voltage to other appliances. Do not worry about fears based only in hearsay. First define what you want to protect from. Then select solutions based in well proven science. Neither the UPS nor Panamax even claim to solve what concerns you. If it did, then others also posted numbers.

[westom]

Redunant post deleted.

[grimmreapersound]

The arguments stated by westorm are valid. That is why I brought up the Brickwall. Here are the specs:

SPECIFICATIONS

Outlets Available 8 isolated by duplex (6 switched, 2 unswitched)

Load Ratings 15A at 120 volts, single phase, 50-60 Hz; full load regulation 1%.

Receptacle Isolation Low pass filter isolation assures >40db load to load isolation for EFT bursts.

Endurance Test 1,000 surges of 6,000 volts, 3,000 amperes, SRV <400 volts, no failures, L-N (ground wire protection) mode, U.S. Gov't. Mode 1.

Limiters Series surge reactor current limiter; cascaded, auto-tracking dual polarity voltage limiters; dual pulse inverters. Parameters optimized for switch-mode power supply protection.

Clamping Voltage Onset 172 volts nominal; 2 volts above peak line voltage (auto-tracking).

EMI/RFI Filter Response (bi-directional, wave tracking): With 50 ohm Rg load: 3db at 5kHz; 26dB at 100kHz; 38dB at 300kHz.

Let-Through Slew Rate 5,000 volt/µs disturbance reduced to 28v/µs within AC power wave envelope, and less than 10v/µs outside the power wave envelope.

Maximum Applied Surge Pulse Joule Rating Unlimited rating (due to surge current limiting) (8x20µs).

Maximum Applied Surge Pulse Voltage 6,000 volts (1.2 x 50µs) (Industry Standard rating).

Maximum Applied Surge Pulse Current >100,000 amperes (unlimited due to current limiting) (8 x 20µs).

Endurance, C62.41-1991 (formerly IEEE 587) Category B3 (C1) pulses 2kv>100,000; 4kv>10,000; 6kv>1,000 (NRTL verified).

Dimensions 3.9" H x 8.3" W x 4.0" D

Weight 5.25 lbs.

As you can see, the incoming Joules rating is unlimited and it can take a 100,000 amp current pulse and it clamps a 5000V per microsecond pulse to 28V per microsecond.

A Brickwall is a serious piece of equipment not just a Home Depot glorified power bar.

[westom]

As you can see, the incoming Joules rating is unlimited and it can take a 100,000 amp current pulse and it clamps a 5000V per microsecond pulse to 28V per microsecond.

Remember some concepts from elementary school science. If 100,000 amps is incoming on the Brickwall, then 100,000 amps is also outgoing via the attached appliance. First the same current is simultaneously in every part of a path from cloud to earth. Much later, something in that path is damaged.

Remember that a wire completely bypasses the Brickwall and bypassed the best protection already inside most electronics - its power supply. That green wire is the soft underbelly - the defect often ignored or misunderstood. And also exists in power strip and UPS protectors.

What is a best path from cloud to earth? A lightning strike far down the street to AC mains is incoming to every appliance inside the house. A best path to earth is destructively via the cable TV wire. Once that transient is inside, it will find a path to earth. No way around that reality.

Essential to protection: a path to earth must be somewhere outside the building. Then a transient does not go hunting destructively inside the building. Nothing stops a destructive surge. Nothing. As in nada. Protection means hundreds of thousands of joules dissipates harmlessly somewhere outside. Or destructively somewhere inside. Nothing stops a surge.

The Brickwall is a series mode filter. It claims to stop some transients. Is popular, for example, in studios to seriously decrease noise. Therefore is (and must be) so heavy. An anomaly different from other anomalies.

[grimmreapersound]

Sorry if you don't quite believe the specs and an honest opinion.

I know it protected my gear in the past when ice storms played havoc on our area's power lines.

I'm just trying to be helpful and bring suggestions about gear that I know work well.

Take it or leave it.

[westom]

Sorry if you don't quite believe the specs and an honest opinion.

I never said I disagree with those specs. My post is fully in agreement with those numbers. A Brickwall does not stop, cannot stop (for human safety reasons), and does not claim to stop a transient on the green wire. It is a series mode filter designed to address certain anomalies - as its specs say.

Conclusions only from observation are classic junk science. Again from elementary school science: observation also proved spontaneous reproduction. A once dry pond suddenly has life? That proved spontaneous reproduction? No. That proved conclusions only from observation are best called junk science.

Brickwall claims to address certain anomalies. Is highly respected for doing what its numbers say it will do. However, Brickwall does not claim to protect from transients that typically cause electronics damage. As demonstrated by numbers.

Everything posted was in agreement with Brickwall spec numbers. Also provided was a simple example. How does the Brickwall stop, block, or absorb a transient on the green wire? It doesn't. It does only what its spec numbers say it will do.

Many credit external boxes for doing what is already done better inside appliances. But again, if 100,000 amps is incoming to the Brickwall, then 100,000 amps is also outgoing to the attached appliance. All learned that electrical concept in elementary school science.

Another relevant fact. Destructive transients are a current source. That means voltage increases, as necessary, so that current flows unimpeded. Voltage increases, as necessary, to blow through anything that might stop it. Nothing stops that transient. Not even three miles of sky. Either that current is connected short and harmlessly to earth outside the building. Then a near zero voltage exists. Or that current increases voltage as necessary to blow through a blocking device. Then damage results.

What happens when 100,000 amps seeks earth ground through the Brickwall? According to those spec numbers, it might increase voltage above 6000 to blow through. Or it might use a green wire to obtain another destructive path.

Those Brickwall spec numbers are in agreement with this and a previous post.. Nothing stops, blocks, or absorbs what even three miles of sky could not stop. Conclusions based only in observation must explain these inconsistencies - with numbers. Over 100 years of well proven science demonstrate why boxes inside a building only claim to protect from transients that typically cause no damage.

[bud--]

You are worrying about myths. Power outages do not damage electronics. International design standards over 40 years ago had this expression in the region of all low and no voltages: No Damage Region. And in all capital letters. Because low voltage or voltage loss does not harm electronics. If that was untrue, then someone could define each component harmed by power off with spec numbers from datasheets. Nobody can because power loss does not cause damage.

What "international design standards" are there for audio/TV equipment?
Who says equipment must meet a standard?

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is a major organization of electrical and electronic engineers).
And also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE surge guide is aimed at people with some technical background.

Same applies to transient protection. For example, a UPS takes milliseconds to switch to battery. Meanwhile, harmful spikes are done in microseconds. Your research should have provided these numbers. How does a UPS that responds so slow stop transients done in microseconds? It doesn't.

The type of UPS that is commonly used does not intrinsically provide surge protection.
The same protection that is in plug-in protectors is probably always added.

Myths, promoted by subjective reasoning (also called junk science), claim a UPS does protection.

Myths westom tries to create claim plug-in protectors do not provide protection.



For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Both say plug-in protectors are effective.

Where are UPS spec numbers that claim that hardware protection? Those numbers do not exist.

A 10 year old could find specs.

View UPS numbers that do claim protection. Hundreds of joules. Meanwhile, harmful spikes are hundreds of thousands of joules. If reasoning is subjective, then hundreds of joules is 100% protection. If reasoning is based in reality and perspective, then hundreds of joules is near zero (useless) protection. Those hundreds of joules are just enough above zero so that advertising (and other outright lies) tell you it is 100% protection. They need you to think subjectively. Honesty always demands numbers.

An honest westom would not claim plug-in protectors must handle "hundreds of thousands of joules."

The author of the NIST surge guide investigated how much energy can reach the MOVs (voltage protective elements in almost all protectors) in a plug-in protector with US wiring. Branch circuits were 10m and longer, and surges coming in on power wires were up to 10,000A (which is the maximum probable surge, as below). The maximum energy was a surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. Plug-in protectors with much higher ratings are readily available. For a couple reasons, the current that can reach a plug-in protector is quite limited, so the energy that is absorbed in a plug-in protector is very limited.

Neither plug-in or service panel protectors work by absorbing a surge. They do absorb some energy in the process of protecting.

Plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge. They work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between the wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment. (See the IEEE surge guide starting page 30.)

When using a plug-in protector all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same protector. External connections, like cable, also must go through the protector. Connecting all wiring through the protector prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires. The NIST surge guide suggests most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and cable/phone/... wires.

A plug-in protector with high ratings and connected correctly is likely to protect from even a very near very strong lightning strike.

Appliance protection means a solution rated at least 50,000 amps. Such devices are in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. How much was the Panamax for only one appliance? 100 years of well proven science says all appliances are protected for $50. First unlearn advertising and dispose of every subjective myth. And then learn the numbers.

Numbers - like Lowes and Home Depot do not have $50 dollar service panel protectors that are rated 50,000A.

Anther investigation by the author of the NIST surge guide found the maximum surge on incoming power wires that had any real probability of occurring was 10,000A per wire. There is a reference to that in the IEEE surge guide. It is based on a 100,000A lightning strike to the utility pole adjacent to the building in typical overhead power distribution.

For a service panel protector, the IEEE surge guide recommends a minimum rating of 20,000 to 70,000A, or for high lightning areas 40,000 to 120,000A (per hot wire). The protector will not be hit with those surge amps, they just mean the protector will have a long life.

A service panel protector is a real good idea.
But from the NIST surge guide:
"Q – Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A – There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO – but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

A service panel protector is very likely to protect anything connected only to power wires. The NIST surge guide suggests that most damage is from high voltage between power and phone/cable/... wires. A service panel protector does not, by itself, provide that protection.


=================================
I am not convinced that a line conditioner does anything useful.

Brickwall is a different principle than devices discussed above. I have not seen an independent evaluation of their effectiveness. I would not buy a protector that was not listed under UL1449 (surge protection). In my limited look at Brickwall I did not see UL1499, or any other UL listing.

[westom]

What "international design standards" are there for audio/TV equipment?

Let me introduce my troll. He follows me posting nasty replies and outright lies. He only joined today because I am here. He is employed to promote power strip protectors. Will post half truths and outright lies to create confusion and anger.

For example, what is UL1449? A safety standard created because so many power strip protectors caused house fires. UL1449 does not define appliance protection as he would have you believe. UL 1449 only tests for threats to human life - ie fire. Did he mention that? Of course not. Popular myths are promoted to protect obscene profit margins. Promoting is his job.

UL 1449 is a human safety standard to minimize house fires created by protectors. He would have you believe UL says a protector does protection. His job is to promote such confusion.

bud has also been outright critical of the Brickwall solution. Series mode filters are not products he is paid to promote.

All electronics meet numerous international standards. For example, how low can voltage drop and the electronic still work normally? Incandescent bulbs can dim even to 50% intensity. Electronics must work even at voltages that low. Just one of many international standards that ... did bud claim these standards do not exist? Of course. That standard existed long before the original IBM PC.

IEEE recommends protectors that are earthed. IEEE discusses many. And demonstrated how a power strip protector can even damage adjacent appliances when a 'whole house' protector is not earthed. Page 42 figure 8. A power strip protector earths a surge 8000 volts destructively through that TV. Damage (and a potential house fire) is averted by earthing one 'whole house' protector.

NIST also says that protectors must be earthed. From Page 17 (Adobe page 19 of 24):

A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

NIST uses the word 'useless'. Effective protectors connect destructive transients harmlessly and outside to earth. Other more expensive solutions only claim to protect from transients that typically cause no damage (ie useless). And do not have the dedicated and always necessary earthing wire.

Different types exist. But any facility that can suffer no damage always earths a 'whole house' protector. Always. Earthing is that critically important. Cutler-Hammer versions are sold even in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50.

These superior and less expensive solutions are provided by more responsible companies. So effective as to be found even in muntions dumps where transients must never cause damage.

[dem45133]

Very interesting thread. I too have wondered about how to protect my own as the latter upgrades are starting to get a bit pricey.

My uncle is an master electrician and spent 48 years at one of the larger GM manufacturing plants. He and I spoke on this a couple of times. So for the sake of argument (no I'm not trying to) here are my thoughts.

You can only potentially protect from lightning... a direct strick will blow through almost anything unless you've provided a less resistive path for it which is very hard and expesive to do. So in this case... everything is toast!

If the lightning is down the road a piece and is traveling down the lines... you "may" be able to protect some... but if its a strong hit and your close enough it likely will still do damage. Think about your wiring.... I've wired several buildings... yes the common and your "ground" (which are essencially the same since most service panel bridge them). But if your lightning surge comes through on your hot side.... it can't get to ground unless it goes through your [name your appliance here]. You can divert some to ground before your equipment through diversion to ground protection devices up to a point... but if its close enough I doubt the conductors that carry to ground are anywhere near big enough to take it all (most of it is only 12 wire... I won't use 14!)... its still going through your appliance.... either direct before the unit can react or its just too hot for its capacity and blows on through. If its on the common conductor coming in... part will go to ground... but on lightning it can still back feed through to the hot line (throughyour applicance) as its potential (or "pressure" if you will) is much greater than the power company's pressure. Its still likely damaged. Actually, its probable that its coming in through on all three conductors, i.e both115 feeds and the common/ground. Like the man said, three miles of air didn't stop it... and it didn't have conductors to follow up there. Its all potenical than built up seeking a ground. No different that the static spark you get from the cat or the door knob... but about a couple cagillion orders of magnitude bigger (nice scientific term here, I know!).

if there is a storm in the area, unplug it... and also when not in use during the storm season. This is pretty much the only protection there is from lighning. I run my system on dedicted circuits as many do.... throwing the breaker is not enough... it can still blow though that too.

Since very few people were really ever taught the enginneering (including me)... Marketing 101 (also known as liar's class) is alive and well, and the manufacturers make full use if it!. None of those published number mean much when it comes to lightning.

Now simple surges from the power company or double voltages etc due to someone hitting a pole or somthing... can be partially controlled. I've often wondered about daisy chaining the clipper type surge protectors... what one doesn't clip... maybe the next in line will? Whats your thoughs on this?

Thanks DEM

[grimmreapersound]

If anybody doesn't like/trust Brickwall,

then check out Furman power filters,

or if you want industrial based power filters, check out the Aegis line.

All of these units use series based filtering (series inductors with tuned capacitors), they are sometimes refered to as hybrid filters.

They do work differently from standard MOV based filters and they can take hit after hit.

MOV's are ok but they weaken after being hit and you eventually have to replace them, good for the manufacturers, bad for consumers.

If you want numbers, check out the manufacturers websites.