Is THX dead or soon to be?

[HornEd]

Question: Why would big, bucks, Lucas Films sell 60% of THX for a paltry $8 million if THX is such an industry wide winner?

Answer: too much bun, too little wiener!

Why even the "proprietary certification" wrapper pegged at theater lobby prices. -HornED

PS: Hmmm, cheapening the THX image kind of casts a long shadow on the mixed arbitrary "standards" Dolby Labs has created over the last ten years, doesn't it? I think Crash has a valid point in the industry needing standards... but I don't know that a proprietary, profit-based company should be the one to set them. -H.E.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-30-2002 at 08:27 AM

[anarchist]

Absolutely not HornEd! There should be a standards body with representation from manufacturers, mixers, etc. Of course, the problem with compromise is the delay it takes to get something done.

For you THX opponents out there or those who simply don't know, I will point out one major benefit of THX, well, ok, two:

Dolby Digital is limited to 6.1 period. To go above this requires a redesign of the architecture and would require new hardware to decode rendering your existing equipment obsolete. THX post-processing allows you to take that sixth channel and differentiate it so that it is in fact two channels, hence 7.1. There is little question it sounds much better than 6.1 as the sounds are differentiated. 7 channels without THX is simply playing the same exact signal through both and a waste of time.

Secondly, THX post-processing is nothing new; Lexicon has had their own proprietary post-processing since 5.1 and can apply it to two channel, 5 channel, 6 channel, whatever. The difference - Lexicon charges huge bucks ($10K for the MC12) to get 7 channel post-processing and refuses to license it. THX can be gotten on $1K receivers. Is it as good? Hell no. Logic 7 is widely thought to be the best there is period. You want to spend that much money?

This in no way means I am a defender of THX. I do think they have been very beneficial but their time has passed and it is time for an industry standard. God knows consumers won't manage to grasp what to buy when faced with the choice of Lexicon's Logic 7, CS's offering, Yamaha's offering, etc. Manufacturers can differentiate themselves with their DSP's but it makes it hell on the studios and what they can expect to be playing back on.

Just think computer industry circa 1988.

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Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995 (Current)

Bryston 9BST (On the horizon)

Bryston SP1.7 (A little further on the horizon)

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

Ella PP EL-34 (Coming soon)

[boa12]

as far as EX, if crash or somebody could provide their info links, i may not have to look it up.

anyway, i always thought thx surround ex was a joint develop between lucas & dolby (imagine dolby did most of the tech work). the rear channel(s) are encoded on the both surround channels from matrixed info, that is info that's already in the discrete rear channels.

i think it's really more hype & nowhere near discrete, though it adds some neat effects mainly in overhead sweeping from front to back & vice-versa.

I think what it really in effect does is the same as the center channel in prologic, that is takes the mono info from each of the rear channels & combines/matrixes

it into rear channels. iow, how does thx make "2 channels" from 1 matrixed channel? are they not just hyping their adaptive decorrelation?

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This message has been edited by boa12 on 05-30-2002 at 11:51 AM

[HornEd]

Crash, I think my last post and your last post are in agreement. I do think standards are beneficial... I don't think any one proprietary company should set them... there can be more consumer safety with a certifying body with broad representation across the industry... including some kind of consumer "watchdog" provision.

Dolby 5.1 and 6.1 have become the de facto standard with 5 or 6 discrete, full-range channels, and methods to separate the 6th channel into two different discrete channels is just not that hard to come by. I built one myself for my own showroom over ten years ago... before there was even ProLogic.

Now, if the mixers will continue on their expanding course to improve their art... HT and music sound could become a whole lot richer. -HornED

[boa12]

but hey over here. dolby thx EX in any form is not 6.1 discrete channels, it's 5.1 discrete channels plus a MATRIXED rear center channel. this i know.

since they use a Matrix & I would assume not want to use directional info from the LR & RR, what does that leave? Mono info. isn't this the same process as prologic for the front center channel? that's what i'd like to know but not have to take a few hours researching at www.dolby.com.

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[anarchist]

Hi Boa,

They are not discrete channels. The 6th channel is compatible with 5.1. Why? Because the sounds for the 6th channel are encoded in the left and right surrounds. An ex receiver can extract the sounds from those two channels and create the 6th channel. Under Dolby if you add two speakers in the rear they play the exact same thing.

Under THX, processing is applied which likely separates it back out into the 2 signals and applies delays, re-eq, etc. to make it sound discrete. Basically half the signal goes out the left rear surround and the other half goes out the right rear surround. THX processing further differentiates that signal.

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995 (Current)

Bryston 9BST (On the horizon)

Bryston SP1.7 (A little further on the horizon)

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

Ella PP EL-34 (Coming soon)

[boa12]

hey crash. thanks. went & looked up some info. this does explain it as i thought - it's real similar to the

front center decoding in prologic.

& as you say, thx came in & required their tech & delays & such be applied to 2 speakers for really one matrixed channel of info. so what makes 7.1 dif from 6.1 is only in the post-processing (not the encoding).

Dolby Digital Surround EX

Dolby Digital Surround EX was co-developed by Lucasfilm THX and Dolby Laboratories. Gary Rydstrom, Lucasfilm's award-winning sound designer and

Director of Creative Operations at Skywalker Sound, drove the creation of this format to coincide with the mixing and theatrical release of Phantom

Menace. Simply put, Dolby Digital Surround EX is a"6.1" channel format that adds a "rear" surround channel to the existing 5.1 channel Dolby Digital

Surround format, allowing sound designers and mixers to "encircle the audience with 360 degree pans and allows more realistic fly-over and ambient

sound effects." What this means in a theater setting is that the speakers along the side walls on the left and right sides will, respectively, be left surround

and right surround, while the speakers along the back wall of the theater will comprise the rear surround channel. The addition of this rear surround

channel obviously increases the filmmakers' ability to put sounds "behind" you as well as increasing their ability to pan sounds around you in a discrete,

realistic manner.

The technology behind this is essentially the same matrix encoding-decoding technology used by Dolby Pro Logic to derive the front center channel from

the front left and right channels. When the soundtrack is mixed it is a discrete 6.1 channel mix. The rear surround channel is then matrix encoded into the

left surround and right surround channels of the 5.1 channel mix, resulting in a 5.1 channel printmaster that is 100% backward compatible with existing

5.1 channel decoders. But when played back through EX compatible equipment this rear channel is "dematrixed" out of the left and right surround

channels and steered into the rear channel. The additional equipment required to employ Dolby Digital Surround EX theatrically is a Dolby SA 10

surround decoder which uses a Dolby Pro Logic decoder chip operating in the analog domain.

DTS also has a theatrical version of this technology called DTS ES which performs its rear channel matrix decoding with technology that is similar to the

Dolby approach with the exception that it operates entirely in the digital domain with 24bit precision. DS ES is compatible with any existing EX encoded

5.1 printmaster as the rear surround channel information is matrixed into the surround channels prior to being encoded in either format.

In addition to Phantom Menace, the following films have been released theatrically in Dolby Digital Surround EX: Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged

Me, and the Haunting. Upcoming releases scheduled include Toy Story 2, The Fight Club, and The End of Days.

THX Surround EX

Dolby Digital Surround EX has been licensed by Lucasfilm THX, the product's co-creator, and is coming to the home theater market as THX Surround EX,

available exclusively in THX Ultra certified products. Where it gets interesting here is that THX Surround EX processors will be required to employ a 7.1

channel configuration, using two speakers to recreate the rear surround channel. In this configuration you will have the standard left, center, and right

channels up front, with the left and right surround channels placed directly to the sides of the listening area, and two more speakers directly behind the

listening area comprising the rear surround channel. Note that even though there are two speakers in the rear that the signal in these speakers will be

playing back in mono, comprising one channel of sound, with no stereo separation of the signal (just as the surrounds in a Dolby Pro Logic or 2.0 Dolby

Surround soundtrack are mono.)

Dolby Digital Surround EX is compatible with all existing DVD players and does not require deployment of new Dolby Digital chip sets to be used in new

products or upgrades to existing processors. Essentially the way this works is that a DVD will have a Dolby Digital Surround EX 5.1 soundtrack with the

rear surround channel information matrixed into the left and right surround channels. This DD-EX 5.1 soundtrack is 100% backward compatible with

existing DD decoders (and their chip sets) For this reason THX is "trying hard not to call it a format," and refer to it instead as a new "feature of 5.1."

DVDs encoded in Dolby Digital Surround EX will carry a digital flag within the "metadata" of the DVD that alerts a THX Surround EX decoder to the

presence of a compatible soundtrack. The processor then decodes the soundtrack, and employs Dolby Pro Logic type matrix decoding on the left and

right surround channels to derive the rear surround channel information and steer the signal to the rear surround channel speakers. This post processing

of the signal is performed entirely in the digital domain, just any other type of DSP mode would be. An easier way to think about this is to think of it as an

additional post-processing mode available for you to use with DD 5.1 channel material. Some processors allow you to use DSP modes that recreate the

ambient environment of churches, or jazz clubs, or what have you, along with your 5.1 decoding. This is the same thing, essentially performing the extra

matrix decoding of the surround channels on top of the decoding the DD 5.1 soundtrack.

To ensure a coherent soundfield, THX is also requiring that certified THX Surround EX processors be able to implement bass management, independent

time delays, and level adjustments for each of the two speakers employed as the rear surround channel. THX Re EQ on both speakers comprising the

rear surround channel is also required.

Another question raised by THX' licensing of this technology is whether releasing a DVD title encoded in Dolby Digital Surround EX would require that

the title be mastered under the auspices of the THX Digital Mastering Program (THX DMP.) According to John Dahl, Certification and Operations

Manager of THX Product Management and Testing, DVDs will "not necessarily have to be THX Digitally Mastered titles." In other words, a title can be

Dolby Digital Surround EX encoded, but doesn't have to be a full-blown THX DMP title.

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[anarchist]

So therein lies the dilema. We are being pummeled by marketing BS that encourages us to add additional speakers. THX marketing to this point has made 7.1 sound like some new format they have created. In reality 5 speakers will play the exact same sound. If you use S6's or WDST part of that sound is being bounced at an angle off the rear wall - better than dipoles - and can create the same sense of rear channels without the cost of additional speakers. Sounds like a winning formula to me - not to send HornED into a fit or anything.

The reality is these folks developed a sound format with limited expansion ability. To roll out discrete channels beyond 5.1 requires the consumer purchase all new processing equipment since it WILL be incompatible with the existing format. Short-sighted? Did they realize no one mixing audio for movies finds a benefit beyond 5.1 and ambient surround channels? Or did they plan on helping the hardware industry by making equipment become obsolete much faster and require far more purchases than otherwise would have been necessary?

Wintel all over is my guess. That, and the fact that most audio mixers don't see a benefit of anything beyond 5 channels. Just ask Dennis Sands. You want more than 5, Logic 7 IS the best there is but they want mucho dinero to share their format but it doesn't require ANY focus by the mixers. Lexicon just knows how to steer sound.

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995 (Current)

Bryston 9BST (On the horizon)

Bryston SP1.7 (A little further on the horizon)

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

Ella PP EL-34 (Coming soon)

[T2K]

The design of WDST speakers is not such as to bounce first surface sound off of any wall. That incorrect assumption was stated,along with much other unrelated and incorrect information, in another thread. As I've stated before,you will get reflection from any speaker in any room,eventually.

Keith

[anarchist]

Hi Keith,

My bad. My post was not meant to imply a reflection first. It was meant to suggest the firing of the one speaker behind you would emulate a rear channel and thus no need to purchase additional channels. The reflection off the wall would serve only to reinforce the mirage of a rear channel. You do mention an interesting point that is often lost - ALL speakers reflect sound; thinking a speaker firing in multiple directions introduces more reflections than multiple speakers firing in different directions has little basis.

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995 (Current)

Bryston 9BST (On the horizon)

Bryston SP1.7 (A little further on the horizon)

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

Ella PP EL-34 (Coming soon)

[boa12]

that's why i'll be jumping on dts es 6.1 discrete as soon as b&k offers the upgrade for my ref 30. but then

the chore will be finding material w/ it. then again just a few short years ago i remember i couldn't find anything w/ dts 5.1, & now it seems much more available.

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My Home Systems Page

[anarchist]

Boa,

My reading of the information contained in your post suggests DTS is virtually the same process. Both are matrixed, right?

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995 (Current)

Bryston 9BST (On the horizon)

Bryston SP1.7 (A little further on the horizon)

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

Ella PP EL-34 (Coming soon)

[cluless]

Schmidty..Your remark kind -of slid by...but it is pure genius.

"The forum should start some type of new ertification"

My first off the cuff response is -..

"Although the Klipsch Forum recognizes the expertise that has been expended to implement Lucas Films Version of THX...It has been determined that the standard employed is largely self-serving and really has no bearing on actual hi-fidelity audio implementations" . As a result, the Klipsch audio users have devised a standard that is ... .

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This message has been edited by cluless on 05-30-2002 at 08:30 PM

[T2K]

No big deal Crash. BTW, I did enjoy your posts recently. Thanks for spending your time doing the reading/research. We're back to basically what boa said here a while back, bottom line: envelopment.It ain't exactly rocket science.

Although my HT setup is in a state of transformation/disassembly right now,I do know the rear center is worthwhile. I would recommend that you latch onto a rear center while you can,that is,if you have the room for it. Pop in Castaway,preferably in DTS ES,or DD EX. Ooohh!

Keith

[boa12]

crash, actually dts is once again ahead of the curve w/

es 6.1 discrete. it is actually 6.1 (7 total) wholly discrete channels. 1st movie dvd to have it was "the haunting" & horned says "gladitor" also does.

requires a specific dts es 6.1 discrete decoder in the processor (which mine doesn't have for now). dts also has the prior es 6.1 matrix which i think is pretty similar to dolby ex.

dts info at: www.dtsonline.com

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[HornEd]

Hey, thanks, Boa, it's nice of you to help our racing to judgment friend avoid another Crash through the reality barrier.

To say 6.1 (or above) is identical to 5.1 is at best naive or applicable only to those whose rear channels are so "fuzzed up" they can't tell the difference... or as applied to the hearing impaired. A correctly positioned array of 6.1 or 7.1 monopole speakers listening to 6.1 or 6.1 matrixed sound tracks have a distinct advantage over dipoles or off-the-wall reflections in most acoustics environments... IMHO.\

And, still, there are some who would have us believe that we consumers are locked in to a 5.1 format which cannot provide additional discrete channels or improve upon a couple of "pet" ambience schemes... but of course Logic7 dispels that by creating a far larger sweet spot for home theater in the processor rather than in the speakers. And, as with any patented technology, other manufacturers are making progress in creating the sound difference by circumventing the Harmon Industries patented approach.

Then, again, there's "Dipole Dennis" Sands who clings to the post processing bromide of putting the neat discrete localized sounds into the front array and dumping the ambiance reverbs into a couple of rear array off-the-wall sprayers. And, if you ask Dennis Sands, he will tell you that the Lexicon 960L is his choice of multi-channel recording environments... and that he sure would like to win an Academy Award after several "Best Sound" nominations. Lexicon and the patented "Logic 7" system are part of Harmon Industries of which Floyd E. Toole, Ph.D. is VP of Acoustical Engineering.

Floyd Toole is joined by a growing number of leading sound professionals who believe that multi-channel sound is in its infancy... and that the full multi-channel benefit that can be incorporated into the 5.1 discrete sound format. The industry target is a pyschoacoustically optimized adaptive system and Toole admits to it being... "just over the horizon."

While no one likes to see their sound system become obsolete.. the nature of the industry is change. PWK designed the KHorn for monaural fidelity that would encompass the most important frequencies of a concert orchestra. When stereo became a standard, PWK used a pair of KHorns plus a Center Speaker rigged to avoid the "hole-in-the-middle" of speakers set wide enough to create the necessary ambience effect. In fact, at one time or another, all Heritage designs other than the KHorn were built in pursuit of Center Channel variations for the KHorns. And, now, stereo has been given a 10 to 15 year life expectancy before it, too, fades away.

Lexicon's "Logic 7" is pointing the way... but even Lexicon's latest processors include provisions for 12 speakers... including three subwoofers... and a Bass Management system that will allow any speaker to be crossed over between 30Hz and 120Hz. How about that, Boa... an integrated solution to solve your pet peeve! The future seems to indicate at least 3 monopoles in the rear array and at least 3 monopoles in the rear array... with the sides containing multiple monopoles to fit the room or a pair of dipoles to spray it with sound... plus adequate subwoofers to provide cinema level SPL's.

Yep, there's a whole lot of change going on... and that may be why Lucas Films hedged their bet by selling off the lion's share of THX to Singapore based Creative Labs. And Harmon International companies like JBL are increasingly moving to Bi-Radial Horn monopoles and away from dipoles or multipole configurations. While watching Harmon International may help in trend analysis... I prefer to make my personal speaker choice from the Klipsch selections of the past and present. -HornED

[boa12]

ed, oh yea the 1st pre/pro i online looked at was the lex mc12, then saw the price.

i then came across the b&k ref 30 & by specs & features assumed it would be at least $4k list. when i found it was much lower & in the low $2ks online, i headed right out for a demo & the rest is history.

the flexible bass mgmt (even if global for now) & the unit upgradability were key features for me. i'm also looking forward to getting at least DDPLII &/or dts neo

for all those digital cable movies that are still in DD 2.0.

but b&k seems to holding out for their upgrade to see if a dvd-audio/sacd digital standard developes. it has the ieee (firewire) port installed, but of course no card or software cause the &^%* industry can't get their act together. another pet peeve.

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[boa12]

here's another good link i found on thx episode 2.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/showarchives.cgi?116

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[T2K]

That's right Ed, just your opinion.

The WDST approach is designed to do exactly what you are now finding the future holds. The WDST speaker is designed to give non-localizeable sound much like multiple monopoles would. IOW, envelopment. How many people will buy 6 or 8 or 10 monopoles for surround use? WDST approxmiates multiple surround speakers.With multiple monopoles you will find that you avoid the same thing PWK found with the center: NO HOLES.

Of course one could aim one's side and rear monopoles so as to "fuzz-up" the sound and approximate the sound of WDST or multiple monopole surrounds. Just my opinion.Everyone has one!

Keith

This message has been edited by talktoKeith on 05-31-2002 at 11:44 PM

[TheEAR]

THX sold in large part to Uncreative Labz(they have a lab!)is a surprise to me.

Well yes and no,did you see all the THX cretified gear thee days.Even PC speakers are certified,the Logitech Z560 are THX certified!!

This means one thing THX certification is worthless and does not serve any good.If cheapo PC speakers can pass THX certification,the standard is pretty low thank you.

Strange my Celeste,ATI and Krell are not THX certified(no THX logo to be found!).Oh well I guess I own inferior gear. LOL

My subs are not THX certified!! I may soon cry

Who cares to who THX is sold,for me even if the Devil(yes the big red imp with horns who lives in Hell) purchased this obsolete standard I would not care more.

So much for THX

TheEAR(s) Now theears