Is bass management necessary?

[jhawk92]

So here I sit, anxiously awaiting my "new" Chorus IIs, I got to thinking...with these new additions, when matched up with Forte IIs as surrounds and an Academy center, will do very well for HT. DVD-A and SACD recommend 5 full-range speakers, otherwise you could miss out on much of the lower end with a sat/sub combo unless you have some sort of bass management.

So, with the above speakers, is bass management in either the player or the receiver really necessary? I don't have any experience with the new formats and I'm interested in what they will bring to music experience. Thanks.

[Seb]

in a word, yes.

unless your speakers can perform down low as well as a subwoofer, which is highly doubtful, you need to set them to small and use an appropriate xover frequency.

but the good thing is manufacturers have listened and pretty much all the new models of SACD and DVDA players come with bass management onboard.

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http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mc.asp?alias=Sebdavid - go laugh at my puny little DVD collection

[boa12]

jh, yes definitely w/ your big speaks & sub use. & bass mgmt w/ an adjustable crossover is also a BIG plus

for the best in fine-tuned bass quality. think i've spoke some on this subject in other posts.

don't follow though. will you have a sub??? nice to have for that .1 channel, & the only real reason for bass mgmt is sub integration. outlaw makes a great device, the icbm, that can go between your player & inputs.

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This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-10-2002 at 01:32 PM

[Mikekid]

jhawk, I have had this Pioneer DV-47a (SACD/DVD-a) for a few weeks now and it has worked flawlessly. All speakers on the unit are set at large with no problems at all! It does have "limited" bass mgmt. Large or small speaker size settings. The main fronts are NOT adjustable on this unit. They stay large. So far, the DVD-a's and SACD's I own have not produced overpowering bass on any speakers...and it has been played VERY LOUD. The mixing possibly?? Anyway.. This is GREAT!!!!!!!

Take care

Mike

[boa12]

i should have added for any 5.1 music disks, no bass mgmt is needed IF the mix is done right. iow, you can set all large, have the sub pounding & not have to worry too much about overlap & poor bass quality w/ the sub & speakers set large.

but for dvd-audio many times if you run a 2 channel track you don't get sub output, unless the player has bass mgmt for it, or you also run it thru the stereo analog inputs & use your receiver processor for bass mgmt.

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[anarchist]

boa,

Smart post. This large vs. small, subwoofer vs. .1, etc. is mired in confusion.

Given my 'rush to judgement' nature, I will say fixed cross-overs are bad, period. I will say thinking the LFE (developed for special effects and MOVIES) applies to music in the same way is erroneous. I will say summed bass below a variable frequency is good. I will say many people can no longer distinguish between bass and LFE and the implications or purpose of each.

Thanks. As usual, your posts are on the money.

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HT - Klipsch Synergy Premiere

Audio - Heresy, KG4

[dougdrake]

And there are some who feel that taking the sub-80hz (or sub-whatever-hz) bass out of the speakers frees them up to be a bit quicker at the other frequencies...

Doug

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[boa12]

doug, not so much if you have the amp power to adequately drive the speaks in those lower freqs, sub 80hz freqs for which they're designed & built. poor bass standing waves come more from the overlap in the lowest freqs than in the 2nd octave.

i know you have the ample power. looking at that icbm?

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This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-10-2002 at 03:31 PM

[jhawk92]

Guys-

Thanks much for all the comments. I was just interested in what the whole deal was. It will be a little while before I splurge for new electronics, since this year I have upgraded my center to Academy and bought Mike Lindsey's Chorus IIs (due here tomorrow), so the HT fund is kinda low. Besides, waiting a bit longer will mean I could get more features!

Boa-

Yes, I have the PW2200, so I would have a sub in the package. Mike Lindsey and I had a good conversation about this topic, and he highly recommended the Outlaw ICBM, so I'll certainly keep it in mind as things progress.

Mikekid-

He also mentioned the Pioneer unit. I am certainly interested in being able to have one player for everything...hello Denon???

Mike L. and I also discussed the small/large theory. Once I get the Chorus IIs hooked up and dialed in, I'll play around a bit comparing the two options. I'm sure the wife will love me for that...nothing like playing the same tracks off a DVD or CD multiple times to listen close. It's about what I did on my center channel comparison, but that was for 3 speakers.

Thanks all! And a green froggy for Cluless!

[boa12]

jhawk, & when you upgrade to the 5803 u'll have some more BM flexibility.

play "my name is mud" by primus for the bass testing. claypool will work on that pw for ye.

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[jhawk92]

Boa-

I'll certainly keep that unit in mind, but it will be a while before I can afford any big ticket electronics. Now, if I start playing the lottery...

[dougdrake]

Let me finish the sentence:

"I'll certainly keep that unit in mind, but it will be a while before I can afford any big ticket electronics. Now, if I start playing the lottery..."

"...it'll be even longer."

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[boa12]

outlaw icbm is "only" $250.

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[WMcD]

I'd say that "bass management" IS necessary. The point is that bass "mis-management" can be a problem.

You have to study the settings of the AV receiver carefully to make sure its bass management is properly set up for the equipment connected to it.

It is beyond the scope of a short post. However, if you're using a sub, this should be enabled. The physically small speakers should be set to small, probably all of them if you're using a sub. The system should be calibrated with the help of the manual for the system and a Radio Shack sound meter.

Also, please know that in DTS or Dolby Digital sources, there is a LFE channel, as an INPUT. This is independent of whether you have a sub attached to the output. Bass from the LFE channel gets sent to a sub or the mains depending on settings for the speakers.

It is difficult to tell if you do have a sub. If you're using the Chorus and Forte all round, except for the Academy, without a sub, I think you should try setting all to large, except the Academy center. That, alone, should be set to small. Set like that, the LFE channel input should find its way to the main flanking speakers.

You've got a heck of a system coming on line and I think you'll be very pleased. I think you should consider the Chorus II and Forte II as "full range" speakers and very well matched to each other. At least as a first experiment.

Gil

This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 06-11-2002 at 08:50 PM

[boa12]

gil, that's the feature/design problem i've been harping about for a while now. almost every processor/dsp chip out there is programmed so that sub:yes sends all of the .1/LFE channel to the sub preoutput/sub only. iow, no matter where you set any speakers, large or small, available LFE goes only to the sub. only way around this is to wire the sub speaker level - around the dsp/sub preout.

this what i have coined the bass manager's dilemma.

if you engage the low pass crossover on the sub itself,

then you can cut some of the LFE range/output & diminish its effect.

actually, this is good since imo LFE is for a sub only & should only be sent there. what is not good is that the fixed crossover in most units at 80hz or so is too high for our larger klipsch. i've found a 50hz both high pass/low pass setting works best overall in my sys, but that's because i went & got a pre/pro that's crossover adjustable.

w/ adjustable crossover you can disable the low pass in the sub so LFE is not cut, lower the high pass so speakers set small play down in freq to their true ability, also lower the low pass in the dsp so that low bass to the sub jives at the more optimal point w/ the other speaks & doesn't go higher than it should.

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[Q-Man]

Yamaha gives you three choices for the LFE channel.

Mains, Sub, or Mains and Sub. I found it to be a nice feature, it allows you to set your sub lower. I thought that all receivers had this option untill recently. I think we discussed this when Boa and I started using Outlaws ICBM.

Q.

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Q-Man

[boa12]

yea Q i almost mentioned the yammy as an exception. but they're all i've seen that have LFE management. even my pre/pro sends lfe to sub only unless no sub is used & sub:no is selected.

btw, i never did get the icbm as haven't gotten a dvd-audio player yet (& have the adjustable crossover in the pre/pro dsp). it fills a great niche though for both dvd-audio & between a preamp/amp for flexible bass mgmt.

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This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-11-2002 at 11:10 PM

[jhawk92]

Doug-

You are absolutely correct...but first, I have to start playing the lottery. Although, I may be making a trip down to Chickey's once a week if NJ decides to bring out the Megalottery, where the minimum prize is 500M!!!

Boa-

Yeah, the ICBM is a good price, but I would still have to get a DVD-A player. I like the idea of that Pioneer, but that is over a grand, more than I have to spend right now. You bring up good points about crossovers; things I'll have to think about at some later date. My system sounds good to me, but then I may not have the sub tuned "right." Not too boomy, and can shake the walls when called upon.

Gil-

I have the Paradigm PW2200 for the sub and it keeps up quite well with the Fortes. Right now, Academy is set to small, Fortes at large, and the two pr KG 1.2s for surround/back center are small. All were set with the Rat Shack meter and manual. I have the Avia disc as well, and have used that to tune the TV, and will use the audio portion next.

Once the Chorus IIs arrive, those will be mains, and the Fortes will head to surrounds. I love the system now and can't imagine what it will be like with the new speakers. They are scheduled to arrive tonight, so that will be wonderful. I'll be experimenting between "large" and "small" over the coming weeks and see what I like best. Seems a shame to set those beasts to small, but if it helps the overall quality, then I'm for it.

[boa12]

jh, what's the shame are those too high fixed crossovers in most receivers. large/small are pretty minor if you have that adjustability. but again adjustability is what i'd call just a good tweak feature - not a total necessity.

yea i've hinged my dvd-audio move more on the development of a digital connection standard (even a ieee port firewire upgrade will do ). but, though analog connections from player to receiver are required for dvd-audio (mlp) at this time (current standards don't allow the digital passing of signal w/ a higher than 48k sampling rate), you can still use an icbm between the receiver inputs & the analog outputs of any

dvdp - even dvd-video players.

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[Mike Lindsey]

Rob,

I believe by setting the speakers to SMALL, you are just sending everything from 80hz and below to your subwoofer, due to the fixed crossover in the Denon. Bt setting it to LARGE, I believe only the LFE channel (.1) goes to the sub. Everything else goes to your mains, and I am sure they are sending some sub 40hz signals to the mains once in a while.

Here is a little more info on the ICBM. You don't need a DVD (Audio or Video) player in order to use it. I feel it would be best used as a bass management tool for all sources as opposed to just for the DVD player. You do this by putting it in between your Denon and 5 or 6 channels of outside amplification (one or multiple amps). I know you have the Denon 2-channel amp, and I have the Acurus A200X3 (200w x 3), but to use it for all sources, you would need 3 or 4 more channels of amplification.

To setup, you run cables from the preouts on your mains, center, sub and rear(s) to the inputs on the ICBM. Next connect the output jacks from the ICBM to the input jacks on your amplifier(s) for each of the corresponding channels. You would then set all your speakers to LARGE and subwoofer to ON, which in effect disables the bass management from the Receiver and passes it on to the ICBM.

Now you can adjust each of the 6 channels (front L, front R, center, surround L, surround R, surround backs) in 20 hz increments from 40 to 120hz. The other nice thing about this unit is the Subwoofer Level. Set it to 0 when you dial the sub channel in using your AVIA or VE disk. Then if you want to turn the bass up or down, you simply adjust this knob versus changing the channel level adjustment on the reciever.

Of course if you choose to stay with your current configuration, by adding the DVD-A or SACD player, you would hook the ICBM in between the DVD player and the Receiver. When hooking to the receiver, you would run cables from the ICBM channel outputs to the Receivers External Inputs (EXT-IN on the 4800). You would set all the speakers to LARGE on the DVD player so that it sends a full signal to the ICBM. You will still have to adjust the channel levels for the EXT-IN setting as well as the digital settings (DD, DTS) in this configuration.

Personally, I prefer using the DACS in my DVD-A player and turned off the digital cable to the receiver. This means whether I am watching a movie, rock concert, DVD-A or listening to a CD, I am always doing it through the analog cables. This also means I have bass management for all of those sources by going thru the ICBM, but it still sounds better even without it.

BTW, let me know when the speakers arrive and don't forget to give us your thoughts...

Mike

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