Son of Heresy

[cc1091]

So call me crazy, but I have a pair of Heresy's (c1981) that I am using as speaker stands for my rear channel speakers (B&W 602s1 - front channels are Klipsch Rp-3s). I grew tired of the brash in your face sound that the Heresy's provided in abundance. Since their purchase in 1981, I had also been disappointed by the lack of bass that these speakers have (even the Heresy IIs are lacking in bass by my ear). I did enjoy the crisp sound and wide, dynamic soundfield that these speakers provide (a point which drew me back from B&W to the Reference RP-3s I have today).

I have read with interest the modifications to Heresy's that have been posted here, but have not read about anyone who has completely removed the drivers and reassembled them into a new cabinet with a competent woofer (perhaps a powered sub?). It happens that I also have a Klipsch KSW-10 sitting unused in my living room (since the purchase of the RP-3s made it redundant). My initial though would be to get the parts of another KSW-10 and combine it with the parts from my Heresys and my KSW-10 to form a new speaker (or perhaps this is a reintrpretation of the RP-3s that Klipsch presently mfgs).

Son of Heresy???

Please brainstorm with me..

[RossVTaylor]

Heresies as speaker stands? I know plenty of people, myself included, who would gladly buy or make you real speaker stands in exchange for the Heresies! (SteveP, jump on in here!)

All speakers are designed with compromise - you buy them to match your priorities and tastes. You are welcome to experiment and modify to your hearts content, but you might be better off seeking out a speaker that better matches your preferences. I, for one, wouldn't mess with one of PWK's original children (even if it's just a "box with holes").

Ross

[cc1091]

Yeah, I know those subs are pretty skimpy..that's why I dumped the whole B&W with sub idea and bought back into Klipsch with the RP-3's. The RP-3's are the other extreme when it comes to bass...nearly overpowering.

If you listen with my ears and look at my price range, there are no really good speakers out there right now. As good as the RP-3 and Rp-5 are, they don't match the Heresy for sound volume or sound field (although they do a pretty good job). No, until a better speaker comes along, I'll stick with my RP-3s for my mains. The B&W is still an incredible little speaker too. They're both cleaner sounding than the Heresy (even the newer ones I've heard on similar systems), and the B&W at least does a good job of pretending to have a deep bass.

Th crux of the matter is that my Heresy's need a new skin no matter what. I also suspect they could use some updating with the internal components (although everything works, I just wonder if some of the distortion I hear when comparing them to my newer speakers can be cleaned up). Finally, improving the bass without completely oversizing the box would be ideal.

Of course I was thinking about the speakers from AvantGarde (www.avantgarde-usa.com) when I originally allowed this crazy idea into my head. Not that I want to build one of those monstrosities. Some brave departure from the classic Heresy would be interesting though. A powered sub would be an easy way out of a lot of math and guesswork. I have also thought about using the horn units with a transmission line design similar to the old IMF speakers of the seventies (http://www.t-linespeakers.org/classics/TLS80/index.html). Obviously though, this would require some critical calculations and a redo of the crossover network. And I must also add that I have never knowingly listened to a transmission line speaker, so I don't know if the characteristics would work well with a horn loaded upper end.

Anyhoo..just Brainstorming..no need for negativism. Afterall, the Heresy was a PWK throwoff design to capture the maket of those who wanted the K-horn but couldn't even afford the lesser models. It was never a great speaker like the K-horn, LaScala, Belle or even the Cornwall (in fact that is about the best solution..resize the box to Cornwall dimensions and add a Cornwall bass driver <and network too??> ).

[djk]

Changing your E network (Heresy) to a B network (Cornwall) is just one 4µF cap and two connecions on the autoformer.Old style Cornwall woofers (K33E) are MSRP $100 each from Klipsch.For something better I can suggest a design with two 12" per cabinet that will use a B or E modified to B network and the K700/K55V, K77 Heresy mid and high frequency horns.At 8 cu ft, only slightly bigger than a Cornwall, it will go 1/3 oct lower in the bass.Adding an all pass delay network (time alignment) to the woofers results in a more coherent midrange than any of the large Klipsch.I originally used the now obsolete K22E woofers.The woofers I use now have the same size magnet as the K33E and have a rubber surround.They are made by the same company that made the 70's and 80's vintage K22,K33 woofers for Klipsch.I buy them from Parts Express # 295-120 II.

[Steve Phillips]

Wow,thin bass from a Heresy,that brings back a memory from 20 years or so ago.

I found one Heresy and disconnected the tweet and mid and used it as a center between 2'72 floor standing Rat Shack things.Bass from the Heresy was a nice addition.

Anyway,get a Velodyne 810 or 1012 sub and be done with it.If you don't really care for the sound,pass them on to someone who might.IMHO that is.

My single Heresy is now my center between my K-Horns in my HT.I added an AA network and K-Horn squawker and it's now a perfect match.

Just bought 2 '96 Heresy's that came with 2 SW II subs,8"with a 10"passive.They are in my bed room doing a very nice job on music.

Ported subs don't get it for me when it comes to music.

[Dick]

CC1091,

I'd be most interested in taking those Heresys' off your hands. Just send me a private note...

[Mystery Guest]

I think you should sell them to someone who will appreciate them.

------------------

The token female for the Klipsch Fan Club Tour 2001

[Mystery Guest]

I think you should sell them to someone who will appreciate them.

------------------

The token female for the Klipsch Fan Club Tour 2001

[cc1091]

OK..everyone looking to purchase Heresy's either jump over to e-bay or order some from the factory. I've been able to get almost twenty years of good music out of them, and I'm looking to get a few more years of use out of them no matter if they stay in a similar refurbished form, or if they are hacked up for firewood. They're not for sale. (however the KSW-10 I would consider selling - but you can contact me privately about that matter...let's stick to the subject here and leave the sales stuff for cheesier web sites).

Yes, Heresy model 1 = thin bass. Heresy Model II = better bass. I do agree about the classic ported subs though (such as the KSW-10, etc). They don't often match well with horn loaded designs (and the KSW-10 didn't match well with my B&W 602s either).

djk from my hometown. I think I know who you are (at least the D&K initials are familiar). I believe I have seen (and heard) a pair of hybrid subs of your..suggestion, that a friend built. Dimensions are about 2 feet, by 1 1/2 feet by 3 feet. Three ports. Two 12" drivers (that my friend changed to 15" drivers..and also did some +/- stuff with the drivers, all of which I feel was a mistake) mounted facing each other. Oops too many details already. He is driving the subs with one Adcom (535??) 200wpc AMP and has four B&W 602s (two per channel) handling the upper end driven by another ADcom 200 wpc amp. These subs worked very well with the B&Ws and also worked well when they were used with my Heresy's (although there was only one Adcom at that time and the Heresy's were being driven by my now semi-retired NAD 35wpc amp). Anyhoo..Impressive work. Not sure how I would combine heresy horns with these though.

[djk]

>>djk from my hometown. I think I know who you are (at least the D&K initials are familiar). I believe I have seen (and heard) a pair of hybrid subs of your..suggestion, that a friend built. Dimensions are about 2 feet, by 1 1/2 feet by 3 feet. Three ports. Two 12" drivers (that my friend changed to 15" drivers..and also did some +/- stuff with the drivers, all of which I feel was a mistake) mounted facing each other. Oops too many details already.<< Ha!Your friend is probably Brian B.He copied a pair of my push-pull slot loaded subs that were at Dave L's house.Those were for EV DL15Ws not the K43s he bought.All he had to do was ask and I would have given him the correct set of plans.Flipping one driver around is a hugh mistake.Unless you like a 6dB peak at 160hz.>> He is driving the subs with one Adcom (535??) 200wpc AMP and has four B&W 602s (two per channel) handling the upper end driven by another ADcom 200 wpc amp. These subs worked very well with the B&Ws and also worked well when they were used with my Heresy's (although there was only one Adcom at that time and the Heresy's were being driven by my now semi-retired NAD 35wpc amp). Anyhoo..Impressive work. Not sure how I would combine heresy horns with these though.<< That sub design cannot be crossed higher than 250hz.Won't work with Heresy horns.The dual 12" design I was suggesting is more along the lines of a KLF30 on steroids.

[fidshimmer]

I am a loyal Heresy owner. My first pair

of Klipsch speakers were Heresies that I purchased in 1979. I have had them ever since. They have travelled the world with me when I was in the Air Force. The thought of using them as speaker stands is horrific to me.

There are many good reasons not to use a

fine elecro acoustic device as a speaker stand. Number one being unwanted resonant coupling between the active device and the "stand". Any one can experience this effect if they touch a drum or timpani when music is being played nearby.

I suggest you invest in some real speaker stands that are designed with the proper acoustic damping and isolation a true audiophile such as yourself demands.

Please sell the Heresies to some one that will give the proper treatment they deserve.

I myself feel that they would be great in a

Home Theater installation with 2 other Heresies and a Klipsch Academy Center Channel.

[cc1091]

fidshimmer - another post like yours and they definitely WILL be cut up and not necessarily rebuilt into anything! And for the last time..they definitely are not for sale. Go find one of the other ten gazillion used Heresys. Hell two of the major bars in my hometown used them as their house speaker system purchasing them by the tens, surely they would be willing to sell you some of their smokey old Heresys.

Hmmm..I wonder how many decibels I could improve the midrange unit by if I took off the driver unit from the midrange horn and attached a pipe sealed at one end, filled with black powder and stuffed wadding into the other end of the pipe..lit the fuse...and ran. I guess that would be a little more than 106 db.

[cc1091]

PS. I don't think my neighbors would be very happy if I played my B&W's loud enough to produce any noticable sonic coupling between the two speakers. Perhaps I'll get the stands after I move into a house.

[djk]

Most rooms have an 8' ceiling height.This produces 70hz standing waves.ASC tube traps are popular but not really narrow band enough to deal with the problem.RPG, the people that make the really good diffusors, sell a tuned membrane absorber that comes tuned for 70hz but may be custom ordered for different frequencies. http://www.rpginc.com/products/modexcorner/index.htm Linn has always advocated single speaker demonstrations because of unpredictable speaker/room interactions with un-powered speakers.An old style Klipsch Heresy is tuned to ~70hz.Reviews of the RPG Modex Corner in various recording magazines indicate that they are very effective at controlling the room problems caused by the 8' ceiling height.Here is the really twisted part: a used pair of Klipsch Heresy cost less than a pair of RPG Modex Corner.Just take out the mid and hf parts and send them to me thank you

[cc1091]

Hehe..

fortunately (and also unfortunately) the ceiling in my living room is vaulted so what starts at 70hz on one end may not end up at 70 hz on the other.. I have often wondered if a bass driver in a properly engineered volume like this would do to the rest of the building. Certainly could give those noisey neighbors a reson to be a little quieter.

djk -

Nope, the mid and HF parts (and perhaps the crossover..modified) are the only pieces I would reuse from these speakers (alhough I would probably keep the signed and dated backs too in case for some reason in the future the world ever actually ran short of old Klipsch Heresys and they became collectors items). Still haven't forgotten your offer of a suggested design though. Your proximity to my nearest workshop makes it certain that the finished product will be in CR whenever (and if ever) it gets built.

[Bluesteel]

The Heresy is my first love. For mid-fi speakers, the only flaw in them was having the horns too close to the floor, and it seemed obvious to add a passive radiator for better bass. Years ago I had the same idea of getting an abused pair on the cheap and building some custom cabinets with a ridiculously long folded horn for deep bass. But the Heresy Woofer having such a short throw, is not designed for a vented cabinet (or one with a passive radiator for that matter). Which is only the first of many modification complications, hehe. Then Klipsch came out with the Forte and later the Forte II. For the money, time, and effort, you should check those out on ebay if you haven't heard them. For whatever reason, they sell for about the same as a used pair of Heresys.

[cc1091]

Nope Bluesteel, I'm not purchasing Heresy's, I already have used them for nearly twenty years. Abused they are. They at least need new enclosures.

I have long ago give-up on the so called bass woofer in the Heresy's as being useful for much of anything (except creating bass in the neighbor's apartment, or down the hall). I listened to Forte's long ago, perhaps I have them confused with the Chorus, but I didn't think they were overall a better speaker than the Heresy. Yes, more bass. Yes, their mid and HF drivers are located in a better place with respect to the average listener. The enclosures seemed cheaper though.

The more I think about it, the more I have come to the conclusion that there are only a few combinations of bass driver designs that will work well with a horn unit. Many of these configurations, Klipsch has already tried. They have marketed the more successful ones. Listening to my KSW-10 last night, its hard to imagine that I spent money on this unit. It certainly does nothing well, but does have some depth relative to the Heresys.

I still have weeks before I will implement or abandon this idea, so keep the ideas rollin'

[cc1091]

Nope Bluesteel, I'm not purchasing Heresy's, I already have used them for nearly twenty years. Abused they are. They at least need new enclosures.

I have long ago give-up on the so called bass woofer in the Heresy's as being useful for much of anything (except creating bass in the neighbor's apartment, or down the hall). I listened to Forte's long ago, perhaps I have them confused with the Chorus, but I didn't think they were overall a better speaker than the Heresy. Yes, more bass. Yes, their mid and HF drivers are located in a better place with respect to the average listener. The enclosures seemed cheaper though.

The more I think about it, the more I have come to the conclusion that there are only a few combinations of bass driver designs that will work well with a horn unit. Many of these configurations, Klipsch has already tried. They have marketed the more successful ones. Listening to my KSW-10 last night, its hard to imagine that I spent money on this unit. It certainly does nothing well, but does have some depth relative to the Heresys.

I still have weeks before I will implement or abandon this idea, so keep the ideas rollin'

[cc1091]

Step One:

I know that my crossover network is getting older. A friend tells me that capacitors have a usable life of 7 to 10 years, so the caps here are at least 20. I do hear that the tweeter is more powerful than the squwaker, and that the whole speaker is somewhat more muddy than I remember it being originally. I have seen the networks on this BBS that others have devised to replace the original network and I have no doubt that they have some merit. I wonder if these networks have the frequency cut-offs that PWK wanted for the upper ranges.

second:

I tore <JK> the back off of my Heresy and unhooked the 10" woofer and used alligator clips to redirect that information to the KSW10 subwoofer that I have. Predictably, the lower end of the sound spectrum that I am used to hearing from this sub was nearly eliminated. Also, it seemed that some of the annoying tonalities at about 60-100 hz were cut off (I always find that range annoying anyway, so good riddance).

Third. Just some preliminary playing around here has resulted in some interesting knowledge (that was suspected) about the crossover network, and that the KSW10 driver+amp might work well in the Heresy. Unfortunately, the Heresy's 10" driver opening is actually about 10 3/4" in diameter, while the KSW10's 10" driver is actually 9" in diameter. That's Ok, a ported sound usually emphasises that 60 hz sound that I don't like.

Goals if I choose to pursue this avenue of thought:

-Isolate the subwoofer from the HF drivers.

-rebuild a crossover network that would replicate the Heresy's (somewhat) except that it would allow the sub to use its full bass range (but keep that dip in dbs at about 60-100 hz that I like so much)

- eliminate the need for a ported design???

Could someone with a KSW 12 measure the diameter of their driver and let me know how large their 12" driver actually is?

Does anyone know if the Heresy II 12" driver is actually 10 3/4"? I know some people have used this driver in their older Heresy's with some success, I just think it would be awful if the driver would not match the perscribed hole for it. As you can tell, I don't have a shop where I can readily make these mods.