A testing time.........

[maxg]

Well I finally got around to performing the test I have wanted to perform for some time, and the results were something of a surprize....

I have been working under the impression that vinyl sounds so much better than Cd simply because the CD recording process is flawed and that the cleaning of the noise actually removes some of the music. In other words there is nothing wrong with the format - it is the process that is at fault.

To test this hypothesis we decided to take the best of the best and compare a homemade recording of a Japanese pressing of Dark Side of the Moon against my very own Mobile Fidelity Ultradisk 2 CD.

The added advantage of these 2 choices is that from what we can glean they were made from exactly the same master tape, at about the same time.

Both source disks were sealed originals prior to the testing (which made this an expensive test for both my friend who supplied the vinyl and me).

The recording was made from an Acousticsolid "The Machine" TT using a Rega arm and Denon 103 cartridge outputing via the new Project MC Phono stage into a dedicated Sony CD recorder using some very high end interconnects.

Comparison was not possible on this system as the room was being redecorated at the time.

We therefore switched to my system (Marantz CD6000 CD player, Project RPM 4 TT with Project 9 arm and Project K4 cartridge connecting via the smaller project phono stage to a decware ZTPRE and dual monoblock KT88 based push pull amps into a pair of Heresy 2 speakers and a sngle REL Strata 3 sub connected at the speaker level).

Additionally we decided that comparison with the original LP would not be fair and so we used a lesser copy (Greek) of DSOTM for the vinyl input.

Comparison process was relatively simple. Put the first CD in the Marantz - play a track, repeat for the second CD and then play the vinyl on the TT.

We decided we needed a totally unbiased observer so we co-opted in my baby minder who doesnt know a record from a DVD for an independent opinion.

Whilst we cannot claim any of the following to be scientific we concluded the following:

1. There is minimal difference between the 2 CD copies other than the surface noise picked up from the vinyl recorded disk. None of us were able to tell which version was playing during tracks where the above mentioned surface noise was absent.

2. There is a major difference with the vinyl. It has more bass, more slam, more impact, better definition and a far more encompassing sound stage. Switching between the vinyl and the CD during play was difficult due to the volume differences (the TT plays louder than the CD for a given volume setting on the pre-amp requiring resetting of the volume during the switching process).

I should add that we have compared the 2 vinyl pressings (the good Japanese one and the reasonable Greek one) and the Japanese one is far better in all of the areas outlined above.

In conclusion therefore I would have to say that whatever the limitations of the recording process I am now of the opinion that it is indeed the CD format that is the limiting factor on the quality of music. I think that it might be possible to better a poorer CD recording with our vinyl recordings but if the CD recording is good then bettering it is not possible with the equipment we have.

Sadly CD is, in my opinion, a dead duck in audiophile terms. Roll on SACD recorders and we will repeat the process.

Note : All the above was performed with no pretence to scientific approach. If anyone has a testing method they would like me to try that would be more scientific I will do my best to implement it.

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My System: http://aca.gr/pop_maxg.htm

[AndyKubicki]

Well, maybe I should get a cable and cartridge and clean up my B&O TT. Sounds like I am missing out here. I will be very curious how your SACD comparison fares against vinyl.

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Andy

78 Khorns (20' apart!)

Audire Difet 3 Preamp

Adcom GFA 535 II

NAD 4130 Tuner

Marantz CD 63SE

Pioneer DV 434s>c>

[Mike Lindsey]

Max,

I too have the MFSL Ultradisk2 of DSOTM and I prefer the vinyl version. Mine is a US pressing however. Since getting the Scott, I am finding I prefer vinyl anyway. I work from home and play probably 3 albums for every CD. My collection is mostly 20 years old and has been thru 20 moves along the way. It also sat in storage for 6 months in a non air-conditioned garage.

Like you, I feel the bottom-end is fuller and has more depth with vinyl. The soundstage seems to be wider as well. On the flip side, I have a lot more poorly recorded albums than I do CD's. I also have quite a few with loud pops, scratches and surface noise. After all these years, I wish I had taken better care of them.

Anyway, I was wondering why vinyl sounds better than CD. Is it a better recording process?

Thanks,

Mike

[maxg]

Mike,

The point of the above posting was to evaluate whether or not is was the recording process or the medium that was at fault (as best as I could do that).

It seems to me that whilst the recording process, may, in many cases be less than ideal it is ultimately the medium that is at fault, or the mechanism behind it.

Things get further complicated when you throw SACD into the mix. I have an SACD player with over 70 disks and still prefer vinyl over even these.

This would imply to me that the oft-mentioned sampling rate of 44 KHz and the 20-20Khz limited range are not the issue, or not the sole issue.

SACD has theoretically a sampling rate of 2.8 MHz and a range of 2 to 100 KHz. That even this does not match vinyl is something of a mystery to me (an expensive one at that!!)

Of course mine is a very lowly SACD player but then again so is my TT. If I were to compare the Sony 777 it may well perform much better but for that kind of money I could do wild things in the TT arena too.

To summarize all of the above - I dont know and it really bugs the hell out of me. It shouldnt. It does. It's a mystery!!

[AndyKubicki]

Max, I agree. If you take into consideration that with each play, the groove and needle actually wear each other out, and that in addition, many of these LPs are old and have been played, this would add distortion. I know this type of wear is minimal if using a good quality cartridge, but it is present and adds to the mystery. Even consider the mechanics of it. That the needle could follow those grooves throughout the audio spectrum...what forces acting on each other! It is mindblowing!

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Andy

78 Khorns (20' apart!)

Audire Difet 3 Preamp

Adcom GFA 535 II

NAD 4130 Tuner

Marantz CD 63SE

Pioneer DV 434s>c>

[Mallette]

Interesting, and not surprising. While I still believe that vinyl will never be anything like competition to digital, I suspect that the numbers are going to be much higher than I expected.

Damn, more competition for the old stacks of well worn wax...

My Card Deluxe will arrive tomorrow, and I intend to do a related experiment. I am going to make a DVD-A spec recording to HDD from my Jan and Dean record...one of the finest pressings I've ever heard, and A-B listen. May take it to the Klipsch forum meeting this weekend for better opinions.

BTW, unless volume is absolutely balanced it is darn near impossible to do a good listening test.

Dave

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David A. Mallett

Come taste muh'

[maxg]

Mallett,

Agree with the volume issue - it drove me mad that I could not get the volume of the TT and the CD at the same level without constant adjustments.

In the end we just settled for evaluating the TT at higher, lower and about the same levels and in each case we still prefered its sound.

Of course the fact that I use a separate powered sub rmoves one of the main issues of lower volumes - that of reduced bass. The sub plays down to 20 Hz at moderate volumes and even at the lowest volume setting on my pre-amp still goes down to 35 Hz audibly.

Doesnt address the shrinkage of the highs but at least it somewhat alleviates the volume variance issues.