ajgb72 Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Ok, I am new to the audio world so keep that in mind. Now to the subject, I have one of those bookshelf systems form philips (you know, the kind that comes with 2 speakers, and a center unit/reciever). Well its got plenty bass I would say, its a 3 way speaker. Now on comparison, I have a bose bookshelf speaker (yes I know how bad bose is, I got these a while ago) yet they have no bass. They are 2 way (supposedly a tweeter and woofer) yet they have very little bass compared to the philips system. So my question is, how can I tell if a speaker has bass just by looking at specs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Hearing, of course, is believing. Reading and research go a long way towards avoiding the "random walk" through stores in search of lower octaves. All things being equal, a good start would be (1) large enclosure, (2) large bass driver (15"), and (3) good crossover network. Finally, speakers will only emit what comes from the amp. A crummy amp will not have enough resolution to drive the bass quickly and accurately. It may wind up sounding like mush. For this forum, popular pro-bass speakers are (1) Klipschorn, (2) Cornwall, (3) Chorus/Fortes/RF7. All a matter of taste and budget. "Used" is good. ------------------ "Bullsh*t!" -PWK- --------------------- TWO-CHANNEL SYSTEM Eico HF-81 Eico HFT-90 New Tube 4000 CD Player 1976 Klipschorns (KCBR's & ALK'ed) HOME THEATER Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF) ALK Belle Klipsch (Center) Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR) Klipsch KSW-12 sub Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls) Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's) Denon AVR-4800 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Just by looking at the specs? Look at the FREQUENCY RESPONSE specification. 45HZ + or - 3db is O.K. 40HZ + or - 3db is better and covers most bass. 35HZ + or - 3db is good. 30HZ + or - 3db is the best, and is very low for a stand alone speaker. Lower than that and you probably need a sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajgb72 Posted September 22, 2002 Author Share Posted September 22, 2002 really? even the rb-3 only gets down to 52hz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 I just searched the Klipsch website for once shown frequency response of the Heritage Series and couldn't find it, but in the specs you show, don't the Heritage series almost follow your numbers? This is from memory, but the khorn's low was about 30 or 35 hz, the belle's about 40 or 45, etc? Just funny how you made your table... ------------------ Andy 78 Khorns w/ALK (20' apart!) Coming soon: Scott 222D Audire Difet 3 Preamp Adcom GFA 535 II NAD 4130 Tuner Marantz CD 63SE Pioneer DV 434s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Specs are often a poor indicator of bass response and no indicator of bass quality. I had a small pair of Polks once (now long gone) which were rated to -3dB at 32Hz. Now in comparison, my Cornwalls are rated 5dB down at 38Hz. The specs would suggest the little Polks would have better (deeper) bass. I'm here to tell you the bass of the Cornwalls absolutely walks all over those Polks, in every respect including depth, loudness and sheer power. Big bass requires moving some air. Don't get caught up in the specs quagmire. A good question to ask yourself when checking out a pair of speakers is: "how much air can these babies move?" Let your ears confirm. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Of course, you can also get into the thing about how everyone arrives at their numbers. I mean, you can take a small box, set it into a corner on the floor, with the back and side walls against it -- and probably raise the bass by 12 db. My little table is really just a generalized way of seeing it, based on my experience with various speakers over the years. Klipschguy, I know what you are saying, and there is certianly a difference between the character of the bass (tight and controlled, or fat and sloppy) and the specifications. But there is this other thing -- the difference between more bass, and low bass. I mean, you can take a speaker and build it, and then place it so it is +10db at 50Hz -- and this speaker will sound like it has more bass than another one that goes down to an honest 35Hz. The specs are just a guide. We look at a speaker and think about things like manufacturer reputation, build quality, the size of the box and drivers, etc. All things together show us the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Dean, I know what your saying about an abundance at 50Hz vs. flat to 35Hz and how they sound relative to each other (I can hear the difference pretty easily). Let me make it clear: there is no way those single Polk 6.5" woofers were 3dB down at 32Hz in a normal size room - maybe in a car or a closet! I have measurable, useful output at 25Hz with my Cornwalls in a big room. Those little Polks? No way! Those little woofers moving big air is like fanning yourself with a guitar pick. Rating are meant to be as flattering as possible and are often not a very good indicator of performance. Andy This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 09-23-2002 at 10:44 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 Understood. But you should never under-estimate the power of Polk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 I'm not knocking Polk Audio, just using them as an example of an overly optomistic rating (one I am personally familiar with). I actually liked the Polk speakers just fine. The question asked by ajgb72 was "How can I tell if a speaker has bass just by looking at the specs?" The answer is: you can't, reliably. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajgb72 Posted September 24, 2002 Author Share Posted September 24, 2002 ok, thanks for the replies but I got one mroe question, lets take for example the frequency response of the rf-7's it's 32Hz-20kHz±3dB , now I know that it gets down to 32 hz, up the 20 khz etc, but what does the ±3dB mean? Also if there is no real way to tell how low bass is based on specs, I assume there is no accurate wayt o tell how loud the bass gets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Klipsch's RF-7 specs are probably pretty accurate (they will move some air). The +/- 3dB means the response curve does not deviate by more than 3dB in either direction (above or below the average curve), under ideal conditions. Also, since the RF-7's are so efficient, I'm sure bass will be plenty loud. I believe Deang has a pair and could probably give you a better idea of how they sound. But, as always, let your own ears decide. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Klipschguy, the Polk comment was just a joke. I understood what you were saying. I agee with you. Like I said, the specs are a guide -- there are several other variables that need to be considered in making a determination of the true bass response.ajgb72, In my room, with my front end gear, at my listening position, with my ears -- the RF7's have great bass. A bass freak, who thinks the whole room should be shaking everytime a bass string is plucked would certainly think I need more bass. The whole idea of what is great bass, or enough bass, or whether or not one likes the character, or sonic signature of the bass -- is totally subjective. This message has been edited by deang on 09-24-2002 at 10:40 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 If you look at the charts on the Enjoy the Music.com site, you can see where the bass range falls and which instruments have first harmonics in what ranges. Remember however, that a 40-hz bass note also has harmonics lower than the 40-Hz level, and other harmonics much higher than that too. Sub-bass being from 10 Hz to 60 Hz (dark blue), midbass as 60 Hz to 200 Hz (lighter blue), midrange as 200 Hz to 3,000 Hz (green, with middle "C" being orange), and high-frequencies as 3,000 Hz on up (red). http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/judging/ In general, the deeper a speaker goes, the better it sounds, but as the above comments indicate, this is not always the case. The frequency response range is only a guide, and it can be a poor one. A frequency response chart would be better, as this would give you some idea of not only where the bass is weak, but also where it is strong too. All loudspeakers should include a frequency and impedance response chart on the back. The impedance chart shows the load the amplifier will have to drive and indicates a lot more than a simple nominal impedance figure. The Cornwalls that I had for fifteen years did not measure as low as some other, more expensive full-range loudspeakers did, but they did have a warm, almost boomy, upper bass range (around 80 to 100-Hz, if I remember correctly I am at work and do not have the figures handy). Plus, they could play quite loud and yet remain clear with amazing small amount of power. This bounce gives them the appearance of more bass than they would otherwise be capable of. They are not flat in the mid to upper bass regions. A warm or bounce in the bass range is a typical loudspeaker makers trick to add bass when a loudspeaker cant reach any deeper. It works. I liked the Cornwalls truthful bass, even without subwoofers. Just as important as how wide the frequency range, maybe more important, is how flat the range is. The typical measurement is plus or minus three decibels, but that is a lot. We can hear a difference of three decibels, maybe even as little as 1-dB, at some frequencies, at certain (youthful) ages. This means that a loudspeaker that is flat within 3-dB can be twice as loud at one frequency as it is at another. Look for loudspeakers that are flat within 2-dB, they are lot more expensive, but have long term accuracy and enjoyment. ------------------ Colin's Music System Ak-2 Khorns & Klipsch subs; lights out, tubes glowing & smile beaming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 I agree with much of what Colin said with one small correction (I'm sure the error in his post was only an oversight). Each 3dB increase requires twice the amplifier power to reproduce, but is only perceptibly louder. A 10dB increase is perceived as being twice as loud, but represents a ten fold increase in amplifier power. For example, if a speaker is playing 100dB with one watt and you wanted to listen to it twice as loud, you would need 10x the power, or 10 watts, to reproduce 110dB, which your ears would perceive as "twice as loud." To go from 110dB to 120dB, which would be twice as loud as 110dB (and four times louder than 100dB), you would need 10W x 10 = 100W. Note: these numbers are for an ideal speaker and do not figure in electrical nor mechanical compression, so please... Try these numbers with a 90dB 1M/1W speaker and you will find that it would take 1000W for it to reproduce 120dB, or in other words: a 90dB 1M/1W speaker requires 10 times the amplifier power to play as loud as a 100dB 1M/1W speaker. You can see why efficiency of the speaker plays a huge role in how loud it will play! The efficiency of big Klipsch allows people to use low powered tube equipment and still get plenty of volume. If memory serves me, I believe Colin is using low powered tubes with his Khorns - to good effect. Warmest regards, Andy BTW Dean, I knew you were just ribbin' me! This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 09-24-2002 at 12:49 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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