prodj101 Posted September 23, 2002 Share Posted September 23, 2002 I was wandering where you people think the klipsch stands against avantgarde. Assuming that cost isn't a factor here. ------------------ New music system: 2.1 using SF-2's (soon to be RF-7's), and an RSW-15. for amplification Mcintosh MC02105, B&K PT-3 preamp, Sony SACD player. pioneer turntable. Computer uses Promedia 2.1's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajgb72 Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 has anyone actually heard the avantgardes? Also, there are more expensive speakers that that if anyone could comment on those too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike82 Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 I've heard both at length. Jim Smith (the N. Amer Avant Garde importer)lives not far from my home in Roswell, GA. When I was a dealer, I made 3 trips to his place in consideration of my bring the A-G line into my shop. I also co-hosted an Atlanta Audio Society program with Art Audio (a line I was carrying) and Avant Garde. All in all, I have about 12 hours of evaluation time with the Avant Garde speakers. 7 hours in Jim's dedicated audio room (Duo 2.2), and 5 hours in a not ideal circumstances (Trio, Solo) (CES, Hi-Fi, AAS meeting). We know what the Klipsch do, so I will give my impressions of the A-G. Positives: -They do large scale music quite well. -Excellent resolution. Comparable to the K-horns -Excellent 3-dimensional reproduction (better than the K-horn) -They can play incredibly loud. -Easy to drive. -Excellent customer service. Jim's a great guy and has a pretty good dealer network. They will take care of their customers Negatives: -Price- they are waaaaay overpriced, IMO -Appearance- their German deco-industrial appearance does not have mass appeal. People either love them or hate them. -More finicky to set-up than the Klipsch. -While easy to drive, they are pretty susceptible to reproducing intrinsic noise elsewhere in your system. Why I didn't bring them into my shop: -Ultimately, their sound just didn't excite me. Of course this is a personal observation. Why? -Poor coherence between the drivers. Horn/Dynamic. So the A-G are really hybrids, not true horns. The poor coherence problems may be due to significant time mis-alignment between the A-G's drivers. Klipsch are also time mis-aligned, but I don't hear that coherence problem on my K-horns. *Maybe it's due to the crossover, or lack thereof. Anyway, vocals are quite smeared between the mid and tweter horns. I kinda get a visual impression of the person's head being stretched 5' tall and 2' wide. If a speaker can't get vocals right, I don't care for it. Small ensemble also doesn't fare well. Out of the whole A-G line, I prefer the sound of the new (least expensive, too) Solo. The Solo has good bass exension for a smallish speaker and excellent coherence. But they are still a tad overpriced, IMO. ------------------ 2 Channel Transport: CEC TL-2X DAC: Audiomat Maestro Pre-amp: Wyetech Jade Amps: Jeff Korneff 45 Interconnects/Speaker cable: Analysis Plus Solo Monocrystal Power cords/line conditioner: CPCC Top Gun, Model 11, Super Power Block Equip Stand: Grand Prix Audio Monaco K-horns w/ALK Second system- My dad's old Fisher 400-refurbished, Heresy II, Vecteur Variation CD player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Interesting remarks, Mike. Some I might not have expected. I have noticed that a lot of the crew that opted for the Avantgarde Unos and Duos have switched to Oris 150 or 200 horns, much prefering this approach. Oris seems to get the nod across the board in comparison with anyone that has heard both. Of course, the drivers also play a key role as well. Have you compared Oris and Avantgarde? kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Mike, just for the sake of curiosity, have you compared the K-Horn vs other members of Klipsch family? I'm specially interested in the little Heresy's. This message has been edited by Manuel on 09-24-2002 at 09:33 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike82 Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Mobile: I'm not surprised about the A-G guys going to the Oris system. I've even though about getting an Oris horn and putting it on top of my K-horn bass cabinets. I'm still thinking about it. I've known Ron Welbourne for a few years having met him at CES while I was still a SoundStage! Reviewer. He's another great guy-- honest and ethical. He was usually paired with KR tubes, which he used to import, however I never heard his speakers though until this year's CES where I had a chance to hear the Moondog Maya (an Oris 150- Lowther PMC-6, I think, with a horn-loaded bass cabinet housing an 18" McCauley woofer)along with his "Yote" 2A3 monoblocks. Simply put, it was the best speaker-system I've ever heard, period. At $14K, quite pricey, but still musically better than the A-G. Yes, even better than my K-horns. I spent a lot of time in that Moondog room. The cookies were good, too! Soundwise, they had similar excellent coherence of the Lamhorn, but much more "body", along with better bass weight and extension. The crossover was as seamless as I've heard. There was no lack of coherence between the drivers like I heard with the A-G. With A-G will go lower though and bass freaks (I'm not one) may prefer the A-G in that respect. ------------------ 2 Channel Transport: CEC TL-2X DAC: Audiomat Maestro Pre-amp: Wyetech Jade Amps: Jeff Korneff 45 Interconnects/Speaker cable: Analysis Plus Solo Monocrystal Power cords/line conditioner: CPCC Top Gun, Model 11, Super Power Block Equip Stand: Grand Prix Audio Monaco K-horns w/ALK Second system- My dad's old Fisher 400-refurbished, Heresy II, Vecteur Variation CD player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Did you ever get a chance to hear the Oris 150 with the Onken Bass cabinet which would be more of a comparison with the Avantgarde due to the non horn loaded bottom? Bert Doppenberg of BD-Design's used to carry them around as well as Ron. The Maya does appear to be something special - AND it uses NO crossover from what I remember reading. 14k is not cheap! Would like to hear it. I wonder how Ron is doing with that new Moondog Audio; you dont hear too much about it. It's his first foray into the Wavelength Audio price range with fully built amps etc. Not the best time for an introduction, however. Those YOTE 2A3 amps are a big difference design wise from the Moondogs. Perhaps if I ever get down to hear old Ed's system I can get a listen to your implementation with the Korneff 45. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Mike, thank you for taking the time to make such insightful comments. I for one am thrilled to hear how well the Khorns sound compared to the big throats of the Avant-garde horns. You have saved me tens of thousands of dollars I have heard that the integration between the bass units and the horns was a problem with the AVs. In fact somebody, (was it Tom Brennan?) claims that horn drivers have to be coupled with efficient horn loaded woofers in order to have a tight integration with the horn mid-range. I have not heard about an Avant-garde integration problem with the mid and the tweeter horns though, so this was very illuminating. The ultra-sensitivity that the Audio/Visual show to front-end equipment is unexpected by many people who are unused to the revealing capabilities of ultra-high efficiency loudspeakers. You are right about the depth of the soundstage though. The Khorns are the shallowest loudspeakers I have ever heard. This is quite disconcerting, considering that they are among the most realistic speakers I have ever heard and a truckload less dough than all of the others! ------------------ Colin's Music System Ak-2 Khorns & Klipsch subs; lights out, tubes glowing & smile beaming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike82 Posted September 24, 2002 Share Posted September 24, 2002 Manuel: I initially bought some Belles from Edster before scoring the K-horns. They are quite similar sound. About the only difference Is the Khorns have better bass weight and extension, buit both have similar speed, timbral truthfulness and tonality. If I couldn't have the Khorns,I'm be plenty happy with the Belles or LaScalas. I use Heresy II in my second system. They aren't quite like the big guys, but still have that magical Klipsch sound. I also prefer them with tubes (EL-34 based), but not all in the group share my sentiments. Mobile: I've not heard the Onken cabinet with the Oris, but did hear the Onken with the $20K SAP J-2001 at CES. That was quite a nice sounding speaker. On the Maya, I think there is only a low pass filter used, but in any case, they sounded wonderful. Colin: Yeah, it's kinda odd about the difference between the A-G and Khorn, even though they both lack time alignment. Maybe there's a critical maximum time- (mis)alignment distance at which point coherence really takes a nose dive. But I trust my ears. ------------------ 2 Channel Transport: CEC TL-2X DAC: Audiomat Maestro Pre-amp: Wyetech Jade Amps: Jeff Korneff 45 Interconnects/Speaker cable: Analysis Plus Solo Monocrystal Power cords/line conditioner: CPCC Top Gun, Model 11, Super Power Block Equip Stand: Grand Prix Audio Monaco K-horns w/ALK Second system- My dad's old Fisher 400-refurbished, Heresy II, Vecteur Variation CD player This message has been edited by Mike82 on 09-24-2002 at 11:45 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 There is a used tube amp esoteric speaker dealer here in Indy that had a pair of the duo AG's. OK, at first it took me back to when I was 15 and heard my k horns...I was like...Holly sh*t. After several hours and days listening to them... (He had them used at $5,800.) I almost took the bait and did it. I can't explain why. As I would later go home in my 22x16 room/// Listening to the K horns effortlessly bring me to "eargasms"...LOL I stayed with the K horns. I guess it goes back to the what do YOU like factor. Since 15 years of age, I have been in love with the k horn sound. I can't explain it, although it is very real to me, with depth, and clearness that I adore. This was not to be an "ego purchase," just because I could afford it... but I didn't because it didn't WOW me. And afterwards my descision really felt good. It wasn't the latest test sheet, stereo review, salesman, or whatever I read about on the web, but my own ears. So far, I still love what I have. K Horns RULE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Mike82, I have them running with an Hybrid tube-ss integrated, they sound much better now than with my old ss gear. I will go to audition some AG's, they are a little far away from here, but I think the experience will justify it. Demystifying hype is always interesting. ------------------ Sony 1bit D/A CDP C315, Margules ACRH-1, ADE-24, Klipsch Heresy, Tempest DIY subwoofers> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike82 Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 Manuel, let us know what your impressions are after you hear the A-gs. ------------------ 2 Channel Transport: CEC TL-2X DAC: Audiomat Maestro Pre-amp: Wyetech Jade Amps: Jeff Korneff 45 Interconnects/Speaker cable: Analysis Plus Solo Monocrystal Power cords/line conditioner: CPCC Top Gun, Model 11, Super Power Block Equip Stand: Grand Prix Audio Monaco K-horns w/ALK Second system- My dad's old Fisher 400-refurbished, Heresy II, Vecteur Variation CD player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted September 25, 2002 Share Posted September 25, 2002 I heard some AG's with VTL tiny triodes, the smaller VTL pre-amp, Mark Levinson transport and dcs digital processing at a dealer in Lincoln, Nebraska. They sounded wonderful. I heard them at the same time I heard Aerial Acoustics 6's with the VTL integrated amp and a really nice Arcam CD player. The AG rig certainly sounded better than the Aerial Acoustics setup, but I did not feel the sonic differences justified the price difference. Of course, I'm not ultra-wealthy, so the issue is important to me. At the time, I was already becoming familiar with the problems of matching horns with cones (via my RF-3's). I heard the same lack of coherence in the AG's, but it wasn't very obvious. In fact, I attributed the problems to the room not the bass units on the AG's. I haven't heard Khorns, though, so I'm probably wasting all y'all's time. By the way: the Mark Levinson transport was really fun to play with! It was like something out of a spaceship.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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