HDBR, question on refinishing oak LaScala cabinets

[Tom Mobley]

HDBRbuilder,

I'm having serious trouble getting the finish on these LS cabs to come out like I want it. See these pics:

LS cab pics

The stripped and sanded oak plywood is very light colored, everything I put on it darkens it substantially as you can see. I've tried Tung oil, regular satin urethane and water base clear satin varathane which was supposed to be crystal clear. Everything I put on it instanly gives it this darker, reddish appearance. The water base is lightest, followed by Tung oil over wood conditioner, then plain Tung oil and regular urethane. All the products are Minwax, BTW. Actually, the part where the sample finish is was not stripped, just sanded with an orbital sander, first with 120 then with 320. The wood feels real smooth and looks great, but was really hoping to preserve the blonde-ness of it, not get the darker, reddish effect.

Got any bright ideas?

Tom

[HDBRbuilder]

Tom...

first of all...Oak? You mean Birch, don't you? In the second pic it looks like oak, though...are these factory-built??

If you want MINIMAL darkening of the wood, then you have to use something to keep the finish from getting into the grain of it, like a wood conditioner...BEFORE applying the finish. BUT, you are NOT gonna end up with it looking like just the sanded wood no matter WHAT you do!! Unless you leave them RAW to begin with!! That is because the very small amount of EXTREMELY fine dust from the sanding that is always remaining makes it appear lighter than it really is!! Even if left raw, the oil from your hands over time, when touching them will darken them some!!

You MAY want to try one of those finishes that gives a "pickling effect" if you want them to remain REALLY LIGHT! After the first coat of this kind of finish, you can apply your coats of clear urethane as protective coats. The downside is that you will lose SOME of the "depth" to the grain and wood color with this technique...but they WILL be light in color!!

If these have EVER been stained before a finish was applied, then they will appear lighter when sanded, but the clear finish will bring up the stain color...not much you can do about that!!...unless you want to go through the hassle of bleaching them out!

Another thing...an orbital sander leaves swirls, whether you know it or not...and those swirls are PARTLY across the grain...therefore making the finish grab into the grain and bring out the dark color even MORE profoundly! Always give them a hand sanding with a sanding block, and a finer grit of paper than the Final orbital sanding used...running WITH the grain...prior to applying a finish...this works out the swirls left by the orbital sander and will make the wood have less tendency to darken when applying the finish!

[Tom Mobley]

HDBR,

They are oak 3/4" plywood. They were built by a cabinet maker in the Chicago area in the 80's. He did about 10 sets for people up there. The finish on them was badly yellowed and hard as a rock. I ended up renting a belt sander to get the stuff off the top and sides. I used this stuff called Kleen Strip Remover in the mouths, it's watery stuff that smells a LOT like acetone. That old finish was hard, it took three applications of the stuff to get it off, then orbital and hand sanding to finish up.

Even that conditioner stuff turned it dark. I'm thinking about that pickeling stuff now. Not what I really wanted when I started. I may just go to the Tung oil, it doesn't require sanding between coats, sanding these things is a non-trivial deal.

I use high pressure air and a vacuum to get the dust off, not good enough? I can see the sanding dust coming out of the grain with air. I can't think of any other way that doesn't involve a garden hose.

Tom

[HDBRbuilder]

Tom,

No matter how hard you try to remove ALL the extremely fine sanding dust, some of it is gonna remain...that's just the way it is. When you compound that with the fact that what you actually SEE is not what the color actually IS, due to light absorption due to the sanded surface as compared to the reflection from finished surface, it compounds your frustration. But that is just a part of the "nature of the beast" in woodworking! I bet that he stained those before applying the finish, and unless you bleach the wood, the stain will become pronounced no matter what finish you use!! Bleaching wood is a royal pain, but unless you opt for a pickled finish, it is probably gonna be your only alternative to have a light color like you desire!

[Tom Mobley]

I saw that bleaching stuff at HD, looked like a two part deal that you mix up. Not real sure I want to get into that, could be a bear to get the stuff off and out of the grain, certainly don't want the stuff bubbling the new finish or attacking the glue that holds the plywood together.

Tom

[HDBRbuilder]

Tom...since you have a HD closeby...go to the book section...you SHOULD find a copy of "The New Wood Finishing Book" completely updated and revised, by Michael Dresdner...it is a really good book on your needs, and alot easier to use than just asking questions. It will cost around 20 bucks, but you will find that almost any question you want answered will be in it!! Great thing to have around!! If you have any questions that book doesn't answer, then I will do my best...or maybe somebody else can help!! Trust me, this is a very good reference!!

[Tom Mobley]

Yeah, they built a huge new HD less than one mile from me. I'm going to have to create a new budget category for it. Funny how I didn't need to make all these trips to HD when it was 7 miles away in heavy traffic.

I'll get the book, I'm good with books. Thanks for the recommendation, it's hard to know which of this stuff is worthwhile with a pointer from somebody.

Tom

[WMcD]

Let me "second" the recommendation to Mike D.'s book. I have the original and didn't know it had been revised.

Mike gave a symposium at a woodworker's convention here in Chicago some years ago. It was a happy accident I blundered into it. Consider that speaker building is part furniture building, part finishing, part electromechanics, and part acoustics. Diverse fields. Keeps us on our toes. He is tops at the finishing aspect.

Mike D. is a very knowledgeable guy. He is a just a tad haughty and some of it comes through in the book. On the other hand, the book which I have is chock full of full of color illustrations, "how to", and funny stories. The latter are often self depricating and lessons learned the hard way. Also, a lot of tricks of the trade.

The book is worth 100's of hours of trying to figure out how to do it yourself the first time without professional advice.

Gil

[HDBRbuilder]

Gil,

The revised version is Copyrighted 1999...earlier version was 1992...not alot of difference between them except mostly for addition of info on waterborne finishes, more on catalyzed finishes, and more on spray finishing. BTW...he set up an online chatroom on finishing...but it has been sometime since I was in there...and I can't find it now...he also has a website: www.michaeldresdner.com

He is kinda big on himnself, but then again, he knows his stuff, too! LOL! At least he is able to admit his mistakes in good anecdotes!! LOL!

Something seldom paid attention to by finishers is the vast amount of knowledge available from less searched sources, especially on particular aspects of finishing. For example, if you are working with maple, cherry, or black walnut(among other native woods), and you intend to put a hand-rubbed finish on them, and want to, for example, make new tiger-striped maple have that same patina that you see on late 18th century furniture, etc....then it is often a good idea to read through some old issues of Muzzleloader Magazine...articles on replica flintlock building and such...lots of sources out there for this kind of info...most of what I learned in this arena was from a J&S Hawken replica builder in SW AR...up close and personal!! LOL! We even forged the bbls, furniture, and lock parts ourselves!! We also made our bullet molds for each particular rifle. He was one helluva woodcarver too!! He built other replicas(PA long rifles and such), but most of his sales were in the Hawkens. It was real handy having many originals nearby at Old Washington, AR to use as examples..even an original early Hawken(although it was in nowhere near pristine condition)!!

[WMcD]

Yup, this makes a lot of sense. I have the earlier verision of the book.

At the time of his lecture, he had been retained by a manufacturer of waterborne stains and finishes to publicize them. Or something like that. It was probably a matter that they had a new product and wanted an experienced guy to perfect techniques, and then pass along the word.

It may be that some of his earliest experience with the waterborne finishes made it to the first edition and then the second edition reports on his accumulated knowledge.

At the lecture, he spoke about the "problem" that the waterborne varnish did not warm up the color of the wood. That is why I suggested them to the poster who is looking for a light finish on an LS. The solution to cause warming was an undercoat of shellac.

Apparently shellac is compatable with just about everything you might put on top of it.

Incidentally, there was a comment from the floor about Bullseye brand shellac. It advertises a long shelf life. Someone there reported that this is achieved by the extraction of the natural waxes and substitution of another type of wax to the shellac.

I had forgotten about the cross pollenation which can occur by consulting with our gun finishing friends. The recommendations for the use of Birchwood Casey's is evidence of it. Just like speaker builders, their craft involves woodfinishing as an important adjunct to the physical technology.

Best regards,

Gil