My trip to Tweeter for a DAC

[bobd]

I went into a Tweeter yesterday to ask about the Mobile Fidelity X10-D and the Margules Magenta ADE-24. The guy looked at me like I had two heads. He was like "I've never heard of those". He never really even heard of a DAC. He said it sounded like it was a gimmick with no real value and if I wanted to get the brightness out of my system I should get different speakers or amplification. He had me listen to some Vienna's powered by some B&K stuff that sounded awful. They sounded dead. The highs just weren't there and I felt like there was cotton in my ears. Then I listened to some Mirage speakers and those sounded better but they were still very uneventful. Then he said the Reference speakers from Klipsch are less bright than the Forte I's that I own. So he fired up a pair of RF-3's and low and behold there was music the way it should be. Very nice speakers. And they are on sale for $700 becuase Tweeter is clearing out there Klipsch inventory because they will no longer be a Klipsch dealer(to bad for them). So, the bottom line for me is once you go Klipsch there's no going back. I'm still going to try and warm things up on my Forte's with either an ADE-24 or a X10-D. I can't change the reciever/amp at this point because I bought it(Yamaha RX-777) only a year ago and there's no way the wife will OK me to buy something else.

[bobd]

Sorry about the multiple posts.

[Frzninvt]

The Yamaha receiver is most certainly the reason that your Forte's are "bright" as Yamaha amplifiers when paired with Klipsch speakers have been notoriously bright. Another option would be to run an outboard 2 channel power amplifier off the Yamaha's pre-outs to smooth out the Forte's response. Or you could use a dynamic range controller to trim the sharpness out of the Yamaha to some extent.

[bobd]

What's a dynamic range controller? How do they hook into the system and how much do they cost? Who makes them?

[AnalOg]

Bobd,

I think you meant the Musical Fidelity X10-d.

Tom

[kjohnsonhp]

FYI, the Vienna Acoustics are "laid-back"...the opposite of Klipsch. I didn't find the Mozarts to have a big enough sound stage or bass but the Beethovens were pretty nice for that sound....and can be found a lot less than sticker (slightly used around $2500).

There are speakers in the middle between the Klipsch and Viennas...try the Paradigm Studio 100's.

I'm testing an M-Audio Revolution sound card in my PC and will be doing A/B with the Rega Planet and Card Deluxe this weekend.

[Ray Garrison]

The X10-d tube buffer stage (it's not a DAC) has been out of production for quite some time. You will only find one used. I have one I've been using for some time. My setup is DVD Player --> Audio Alchemy DTI Pro jitterbug/resolution enhancement widget --> Adcom GDA600 D/A converter --> Musical Fidelity X10-D tube buffer stage --> little bitty old Rotel RA850BX2 integrated amp which I really like --> Sennheiser HD600 headphones / Klipsch KG4 speakers (La Scalas are now living with SoundDog)

The X10-D makes voices sound more, uh, like voices (there's a big help...), makes acoustic guitars sound more like a box with a body resonating behind a string, but hurts the dynamic impact of just about everything a smidge. I vasilate between leaving it in between the Adcom and the Rotel, or just running the Adcom straight into the Rotel. I like each better than the other, but neither is as good as either.

[Audio Flynn]

Ray,

That last line just about sums up being an audio nut(audiophile just sounds to pompous to me of late)!

I do not know what you mean, but I know what you mean.

I started playing vinyl again for the first time in 12 years, using a Dual CS 508 with Ortofon cartridge 3 weeks ago. Within days I was finding faults I need to cure by getting a new table.

Motor noise, arm resonance, vinyl cleaning and so forth.

Music is relaxing and fun; too much equipment knowlwdge is sometimes torturous though.LOL

Rick

[bobd]

Ray,

I'm very new at this audio stuff. I knew the X10-d is out of production but I did think it was a DAC. So, what's a DAC?

Thanks,

Bob

[Ray Garrison]

** Simplified answer, guys. Please don't jump on me for leaving out a bunch of detail. **

DAC stands for Digital to Analog Converter.

The process of reading a CD, DVD, SACD, minidisc, DAT (digital audio tape) or other digital storage media involves, at some point in the chain, taking a stream of digital data and converting it into an analog waveform. The widget that does this is the DAC. If you take a CD player and connect it to the rest of your system using the left channel and right channel outputs, this digital to analog conversion is occuring inside the CD player. Every CD "player" has a built in, internal DAC. Almost every CD also has a "digital" output. If you take this digital output and connect it to your receiver's ditial input, or to a standalone DAC ( Here is one for the truly obsessed), you are sending a digital datastream from your CD player to another widget that is, assumably, going to do a better job of converting those digital bits into an analog signal.

There are things called "CD Transports" that don't have a built in DAC; they just spin the CD and pull a digital datastream from it, then send that data to some other, external box for decoding. These tend to be way overbuilt, hugely expensive, and kind of silly... (that last one retails for $15,500, and keep in mind that all it does is turn the CD and send the bits out through a digital output.)

The original of the stand-alone external digital to analog converter goes back to the mid-80s. The idea then was that (a) by focusing on just doing the D/A part only, and leaving the process of reading the CD and generating the digital datastream to some other box, the DAC could be designed to provide the highest level of fidelity; ( the DACs in most then-current CD players were designed to a (fairly low) price point and could be improved; © the industry was advancing rapidly, and if you split the CD transport mechanism from the DAC you could upgrade your DAC without having to pay for new transport parts (similar theory applies to the separate pre-amp/amp combo vs the integrated amp or receiver).

The X10-D is a totally different product. It was designed with the idea that most of the CD players don't have the most robust *ANALOG* output sections. The typical CD player is not too good at driving long lengths of interconnect cables, doesn't deal well with "difficult" input loads (like preamps with low input impedences), and generally is a weak point of the system. The X10-D was designed to present the "easiest" input load possible to the CD player (that is, it is easy for the CD player to drive, so the CD player is able to sound as good as it can), while providing an output section that does a better job of driving whatever downstream components you might have. Plus, it uses tubes in the output stage, and lots of folks think that running the analog signal through tubes at some point the chain makes things sound better.

With something like my Adcom GDA600 D/A converter, the X10-D makes less of a difference because the Adcom already has a fairly decent output section. The X10-D certainly changes the sound, but whether it makes it "better" or just "different" is open for discussion.

Hope that helps...

[justin_tx_16]

Vienna+B&K=awful, dead sound?

I beg to differ. If I had the money and wanted a two channel music system of anything other than Klipsch, Vienna would be my first pick.

Just you HO and mine though

[bobd]

Ray,

Thanks for all the great info. As I said I'm just getting started and your explanation was "dumbed down" just enough for me.

Justin,

Since I bought my Forte's in 87 I have yet to hear a non horn speaker that I like. And most of the time it's the expensive speakers that I like the least. Those Vienna's just sounded so muffled with WAY to much midrange. I got this mental vision of paper cones made out of kids contruction paper. I like my little Cambridge Soundworks better. I also listened to a pair of Sonus Faber. They were less offensive but I would never shell out 3500 for them. Maybe my ears are not refined enough to appreciate these high end speakers.