ToddB Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Just curious to how many people here have a SVS sub in their arsenal? I have the 20-39PC and Im just thrilled to death. It blows my buddys KSW15 out of the water for deep,clean,tight,accurate bass. The SVS and the HSU have the cleanest bass on the MKT. I went with the SVS due to price and due to the 100's of recommendations at the Home Theater Forum, and of course our guru of bass Tom V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 The cleanest bass on the market has to be Velodyne's HGS series. With less then 2.7 % distortion I think it's pretty clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 yea I was going to say something too todd, but tried to use restrain i think (hope) u meant in that price range. watch it, this is a tough crowd ------------------ RF-3 (front), RC-3, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-15 sub Monsterbass 400 sub cables & Monster Z-12 speak wire Sony de935 a/v receiver Sony DVP-C650D dvdp Sony Trinitron 27" tv Technics dual cassette deck Technics direct drive turntable Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 Well, the VELs are really clean, ultra low distortion. But they also induce another form of distotion. tic for tat in some many words. How do they *limit* the THD? simple, anal limiters that clamp down on the original signal with a 8:1 ratio once the subwoofer approaches it's limits. in other words...if a HGS12 is near it's limits..and a sudden bass peak is meant to scare the pants off you with a quick 8dB higher impact...you'll shrug it off as the VEL will allow about 1dB more bass to be reproduced. They're altering the input signal in a not so subtle way...this IS a form of distortion...no question. Now, having explained that...I should also note...I think highly of the big HGS15/18s. They are going to be playing pretty loud when the limiters have to clamp down...so you're not going to run into *distortion* constantly with these babies. And having 2.7% thd at a given level doesn't really tell you that much. What frequency, and what level? Nousaine just measured the HGS15...I think it maxxed out around 102dB/25hz. There's probably several other options(that cost less too) that would offer that much output...and still have the same low distortion.(at that volume). The VELs ARE good woofs...just not the panacea Velodyne wants everyone to think. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted January 10, 2001 Share Posted January 10, 2001 tv, great info. but is there really a documented sub that has lower distortion than the HGS-15 at 102db/25hz at a lower price? besides the Prep H, if I paid for the anal clampdown, shouldn't I be rewarded w/ the lowest distortion? ------------------ RF-3 (front), RC-3, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-15 sub Monsterbass 400 sub cables & Monster Z-12 speak wire Sony de935 a/v receiver Sony DVP-C650D dvdp Sony Trinitron 27" tv Technics dual cassette deck Technics direct drive turntable Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 >>>tv, great info. but is there really a documented sub that has lower distortion than the HGS-15 at 102db/25hz at a lower price?<<< well, lower than 2.7%? or lower than something else? The lower the THD...the better, but only up(or down) to a point. If you ran 2 woofs...and woof #1 had <1% thd, and woof 2 had (with a typical spread of odds/even harmonics)10%thd...but both had the same volume on the actual source signal(fundamental)...the 10% thd would be subjectively preferred much of the time I would guess. the HGS12 did 96dB/20hz/<3% thd in KEELEs review. the TN20 had <3% at 90dB/20hz. two TN20s with 500w amp would retail for less than a single HGS12...and they would eb just as clean as the VEL at the vels max output. The BIG advantage for the TN20s is they would be able to reproduce the sudden peaks that the VEL would just filter out. Sure, the THD might rise to 10%...but it would be nearly impossible for someone to subjective *hear* 10% thd on a bass peak in a typical HT room. The peaks will generally be in the 20-35hz range, and they will be 115-120dB at the listening position.(at reference level). By the time you catch your breath(these peaks are usually meant to scare you!)...the last thing on your mind would be...hey I think the THD went from 3% to 7% on that one. >>> besides the Prep H, if I paid for the anal clampdown, shouldn't I be rewarded w/ the lowest distortion?<<< the lowest HARMONIC distortion...but to minimize harmonics, VELODYNE just tosses a bunch of bass out the window. The driver cone can't produce harmonics if it never gets a chance to reproduce the bass it was intended to by the film sound mixer...right? it's largely a matter of personal perferences too...but I've had ultra low THD woofs in my HT for years now. My big DIY tube would have MUCH less distortion than any VEL ever sold.(at the VELs max output). I just don't think there's much benefit to clamping down on harmonics <10%. And allowing harmonics to goto 15-18% with LOUD bass peaks will RARELY be subjectively interpretted as *bad* sounding...but this is just my experience. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 tv, well given this it's a wonder that everyone keeps saying that the hgs is like "great on HT but also pretty musical". seems the other way around then as I like it's tight, clean bass on music such as chilli pepper's blood sugar... cd but do notice the clampdown on the HT blasts. I do have an empty sub output - if i were to look at a 2nd sub like an sv or the new rsw-15, is it all right to use 2 different subs as mains in my case, or best to just use the 2nd sub on just like the rear channels? i think i asked this before & got mixed opinions. thnksText ------------------ RF-3 (front), RC-3, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-15 sub Monsterbass 400 sub cables & Monster Z-12 speak wire Sony de935 a/v receiver Sony DVP-C650D dvdp Sony Trinitron 27" tv Technics dual cassette deck Technics direct drive turntable Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 TV I do love this sub for music. Probably a hard sub to surpass for that use alone. For movies it is also a very good performer but I'm sure there are a lot of better movie subs out there. The other day I was cranking out some music with peaks around 115 db and my bass was tight and perfect in sound to me. No matter how loud I go, it's clean and tight with very good impact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 >>>tv, well given this it's a wonder that everyone keeps saying that the hgs is like "great on HT but also pretty musical".<<< people say many things. >>> seems the other way around then as I like it's tight, clean bass on music such as chilli pepper's blood sugar... cd but do notice the clampdown on the HT blasts.<<< You would if you A/Bed the servos with a subwoofer capable of producing the peak bass. >>>I do have an empty sub output - if i were to look at a 2nd sub like an sv or the new rsw-15, is it all right to use 2 different subs as mains in my case, or best to just use the 2nd sub on just like the rear channels? i think i asked this before & got mixed opinions. thnksText<<< Even if you had a single woof output, just use a linelevel Y to split it. I almost always suggest putting multiple woofs all on the LFE/subwoofer preout of the processor. IMO--*surround* subwoofers rarely perform well. >>>I do love this sub for music. Probably a hard sub to surpass for that use alone. For movies it is also a very good performer but I'm sure there are a lot of better movie subs out there.<<< It's just a matter of priorities...if you want clean bass,that extend VERY low..from a single reasonably sized enclosure...the VEL servos are a great choice. But like any design, they do have limitations. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted January 11, 2001 Share Posted January 11, 2001 Todd B & TV--I have the KSW-15 running up front with KLF-30's and KLF-C7 and a KSW-100 in the rear running with KSP-S6's......What is the price for the 20-39PC? And will it outperform the KSW-15 alone? If so, will it outperform the output I am getting with my KSW-100 and KSW-15 combined. TV--Finally, do all "Mainstream" Subs have this "Clampdown" feature??? How discouraging if they do. Does Klipsch do this to their subs also?? I think my next sub will be an SVS based on all the positive feedback here. Thanks for helping an aspiring audiophile/ HT NUT. BLOOMIS914 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 the hgs do have a 3000W Class D amplifier. that's 3000W peak. as I write this my monitor is rattling w/ just some lame movie from cable on & the receiver volume at only 3. this sub does have impact. if u want more, u can always crank the output. then u get the distortion up w/ the other subs, no? & don't other subs just call the horse (servo) by a dif. name? like sunfire & it's "patented downconverter". what's that? isn't that a means to the same end? just wanted to make the point that a servo does clampdown, but in the case of the hgs it's clamping down on a pretty big amount of juice from the get go. ------------------ RF-3 (front), RC-3, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-15 sub Monsterbass 400 sub cables & Monster Z-12 speak wire Sony de935 a/v receiver Sony DVP-C650D dvdp Sony Trinitron 27" tv Technics dual cassette deck Technics direct drive turntable Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 >>>Todd B & TV--I have the KSW-15 running up front with KLF-30's and KLF-C7 and a KSW-100 in the rear running with KSP-S6's......What is the price for the 20-39PC? And will it outperform the KSW-15 alone? If so, will it outperform the output I am getting with my KSW-100 and KSW-15 combined.<<< I think the 20-39pc is 750 delivered. It will outgun the Klipsch unit <35hz...but from 35hz and up...I don't think you'll notice any improvement. >>TV--Finally, do all "Mainstream" Subs have this "Clampdown" feature??? How discouraging if they do. Does Klipsch do this to their subs also??<<< Most have some sort of limiters. This is reasonable enough of course. But sometimes you have to look closely at what the limiter is actually doing...and perpahs MOST importantly...you have to be aware of the subwoofer's capbilities BEFORE the limiter will have to be engaged. >>I think my next sub will be an SVS based on all the positive feedback here. Thanks for helping an aspiring audiophile/ HT NUT. BLOOMIS914<, theres a lot of good woofs on the market, just do as much homework as you can on each..and them match the performance to your expectations. >>>the hgs do have a 3000W Class D amplifier. that's 3000W peak. as I write this my monitor is rattling w/ just some lame movie from cable on & the receiver volume at only 3. this sub does have impact. if u want more, u can always crank the output. then u get the distortion up w/ the other subs, no?<<< Of course, the big servos from VEL have *impact*...I hope I didn't come off as being that negative about them? I'm trying to point out some basics in how the servo-circuitry brickwalls the input signal when the input signal is *sensed* to be too much for the subwoofer to handle with ULTRA-low distortion. So yes, distortion stays LOW...unfortunately, it stays low because the servo-limiter isn't allowing the driver to *see* the recorded signal. >>>& don't other subs just call the horse (servo) by a dif. name? like sunfire & it's "patented downconverter". what's that? isn't that a means to the same end?<<< Most commercial woofs DO have some sort of limitation device. You're quite correct. >>>just wanted to make the point that a servo does clampdown, but in the case of the hgs it's clamping down on a pretty big amount of juice from the get go.<<< Nousaine measured a clean 102dB(ish) from the HGS15 at 25hz(2 meter from a corner loaded woof). Thats VERY good. and it would still take...4 HGS15s to meet the MINIMUM *reference* requirements for DD in his room. scary huh? TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dman155 Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 This is my understanding. Most manufacturers have some sort of anti-clipping circuit to protect the amplifier. Many subs also have over-excursion protection which isn't really necessary in most cases (how many sub amps are capable of driving the driver to maximum excursion before they clip?). Not many subs curb distortion actively. A servo sub does, and it does this by changing the signal the driver sees and it also limits output. All subs will play distorted at any level, but audible distortion doesn't start to be a problem until its around 10%. I'm just guessing here, but many subs can go up to 15 or even 20? % distortion during bass peaks. With distortion that high, the sound might not fully reflect the source, but its much louder then when distortion is maintained at or below 2.7% (for your velo). I'm sure velodyne has protected its subs so you can't disable the servo, but if you could, you get a lot more bass. FYI, I'm pretty sure all velodyne's have the anti-clipping and over excursion protection stuff. The servos are just on their top models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 thanks again for the info tv! so how would the bigger sv sub sound along w/ an hgs, or most other brand's powered subs? complimentary or conflicting or both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 DMAN You mention that if we could could undo the servo we would have a lot more bass. That may be true but the Vel's servo subs WITH the servo and the anal clamp down STILL outperform (deeper and louder) most all other mass marketed subs out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dman155 Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 I know RWMIN, so imagine what it would be like without the servo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleggatt Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 You guys need to see the specs on the RSW-15 that was posted on the HT board under the topic of the new products at the CES. That 15 is gonna own a lot of other subs on the market. Now to get rid of the PW-2200. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 I know, I know, I have already excepted the fact that I will probably be buying the RSW 15 by the end of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dman155 Posted January 12, 2001 Share Posted January 12, 2001 Don't get too excited. Klipsch tends to over-estimate their subs performance. RSW-15 w/125 dB at 25 Hz? We'll see about that. Of course, with a 30 lb magnet they must be pretty serious. I thought the HGS's were massive with 24 pounders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted January 13, 2001 Share Posted January 13, 2001 They did seriously overstate the LF 10's capabilities. I will wait for some independent reviews and also to see if they can hold up this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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