New partner for my RF-7's

[shoe11]

My Rotel gear is being moved to the bedroom. The Denon-2900 DVD/SACD/DVD-A order has been cancelled. I'm staying with 2-channel CD for at least another year and might even (can't believe I'm saying this) add a nice quality Rega/Sota/Linn/VPI table to play with those big, black 12 inch CD's so many of you are fond of.

Multi-channel, hi-rez at this point in time to me is just too gimmicky and undeveloped to be worth the investment. In addition, as I've been expanding my appreciation for music from earlier periods and styles, I've found that my relatives have left me a treasure trove of great music just waiting to be heard. The hardest part of audio these days sounds like working a table. I've read reviews on tables in Stereophile/TAS and at the end I have no idea what the hell they're talking about. Sounds like vinyl got confusing as hell to setup since I last messed with it 20 years ago. Sorry to ramble about that. I'll save my vinyl questions for another post.

Anyway here's the deal, to serve as the anchor for my new main system these are units that I'm considering. I think I have a fair handle on how suitable each would be when paired with my RF-7's. I would enjoy and appreciate any comments regarding my choices/thoughts. Even if you have experiences with these when not paired with Klipsch, I'd like to hear them.

Musical Fidelity A3.2 Integrated

YBA Integre DT

Creek 5350SE

CJ CAV-50

Manley Stingray

Jolida JD 300B

Thoughts on the SS units:

My original plan was to purchase either the MF or Creek SS, but after reading more about their sound profiles, I believe that the MF may be a bit too laid back and the Creek perhaps too detailed/clinical to match well with my RF-7's. YBA is a very high quality unit, but I haven't read a great deal about this particular model's sound. I have a suspicion it's close to the MF.

The tubes:

My heart is set on the CJ. I really need to experience the tube bliss that so many of you on here rave about and this EL-34 based amp sounds to me like it would be the perfect match for Klipsch. The Stingray is EL-84 based. I haven't read a great deal one way or the other about how the 84 sound compares. Lastly, the new Jolida SET. There are no reviews/comments out on this one yet, but I know several members here are part of the SET club and it has me curious. The ASL Orchid 2A3 I've researched heavily as well. I think the two things holding me back from either of these SET options is a)concerns regarding Jolida/ASL build quality and b)trusting that such a small wattage output will be sufficient.

I do have one tube related question regarding the CAV. It provides the option to be configured as Ultra-Linear or Triode. Any thoughts on which would be the better choice with 7's?

Right now I have a very strong feeling I'll be coming home with either the CJ or MF on Wednesday.

Which would you pick?

~shoe

[Bill H.]

Shoe,

I use an older Creek 4140 int amp and love it,i run Heresys with no problems. It is crisp,clear and has plenty of power.

The 5350 your looking at is just a newer version. BTW if you can, look at Cambridge Audio. There componets are made by creek, and they sell for about half of the creek price. Good reviews also. IMHO.

BILL H.

[shoe11]

Bill~

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad to hear that you think it would still be a good option to consider. I tend to prefer a more detailed, forward sound and at first I thought the Creek would be the perfect match, but then I started thinking that the combination might make the sound just too bright/detailed. I don't have a local dealer for Creek, but I do know of one which is well regarded and not too far away. I plan to call them on Monday to perhaps see about receiving a 5350SE to try out.

~shoe

[Bill H.]

shoe,

Here is a link you may find helpful with your research into creek. I talked about Cambridge Audio, because most dealers who carry Creek, also know and can get Cambridge Audio. The Creek retails for 695.00 whereas the Cambridge A500 retails for about 450.oo or less and the A300 for about 275.00.

http://www.musichallaudio.com/products/index.asp

[Fish]

If you like vinyl thats great,I have heard vinyl on 30k turntables.DVD-A AND SACD are not "gimmicks",if you think they are like some Yamaha DSP you are mistaken.I don't sell either so it don't matter to me,but either sounds just as good as that 30k turtable,imo.

[leok]

This is all my experience, not fact:

I listen at moderate volume: SET is best.

For louder, class A, pp, no feedback, triode mode is best.

I like the little Tripath amp, but I'm all out of those.

Anything outside of those three gets too harsh for me. I'm sure there are plenty I haven't tried.

Get the best tt and arm you can make yourself afford. I just picked up a used Basis 1400 with Graham 1.5 arm. What a difference from my Dual!!

leok

[Deang]

The CAV-50 is very nice. I've always wanted to give it a try.

Here is a good review for it: http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/steve07.htm

Since you're staying with integated amps, I think you should definitely stay with tubes. I don't like the sound of horns with SS preamps -- which is what you will end up with if you go with a solid state integrated.

I agree with Leo for the most part, but musical tastes and listening habits should really be the determining factors for your decision.

A push-pull, Class A, zero feedback, triode (wired) amp can get you very close to the see through quality of SET. They are a good compromise between the transparency and smoothness of SET -- and the control, presence, and huge soundstaging characteristics of a good Ultra-linear amp. However, you are looking at integrated amps, and I'm not aware of any that fit into the above classification. SET and Triode wired push-pulls both require very good preamps.

You have opened up a can of worms with the Ultra-linear/ triode question.

If you go to www.audioasylum.com, and go into the tubes section, and then do a search on the words "triode ultra-linear" -- you will see by reading through the posts that folks are about evenly split on the issue. This kind of thing is extremely system/ear dependant. There is simply no way to tell which you will prefer.

My experience with the RF-7 is that it sounds more natural to my ears with an EL-34 Ultra-linear amp. I do listen primarily to Rock music and Pop, and have found triode push-pull to be a bit too incisive above 90db, and SET unable to deliver the goods in an unresticted manner.

Simply put -- if you like to kick back and be drawn into the music at low to moderate listening levels -- go SET or very high quality push-push. If you like to push the envelope a little -- you'll need at least 40 watts and the higher damping factor that usually comes with the Ultra-linear circuit.

Incidently, "Ultra-linear" is also known as "partial triode".

Personally, with the RF-7's -- I would go with the CAV-50 in Ultra-linear.

[shoe11]

Dean and Leo,

Thanks for your information. I suspected that given my listening habits, that ultra-linear would be the best way for me to go. Of course if my listening habits change, I could have the modification done at that time. CJ is located only about 25 miles from my house.

As for the turntables, I haven't done a great deal of reading on them yet, but I have seen that the VPI Scout has received some favorable reviews for around $1500. I assume this is a quality piece, but Leo is this the kind of price range you were referring to? I know turntables/arms can go ridiculously high, but are not the Rega/Linn/Sota/VPI units solid players?

~shoe

[leok]

shoe11,

The VPI Scout looks very nice. I wanted to get one but it won't fit in my cabinet. I was lucky in finding the used Basis that happens to just fit. Anti-skate on the VPI JMW-9 looks a little tricky, but I've never worked with one that wasn't, so the leadwire approach is probably as good as anything else.

leok

[Erik Mandaville]

Shoe:

With speakers that are capable of over 100dBs with a single watt, it's easy to get loud quite quickly -- but of course you know this already! I wanted to ask you about that ASL 2A3 amplifier: The one I remember receiving very, very high praise was one called the 'Tulip.' At least that's what I remember..it was some time ago that I read about it in Listener.

Good luck with your search, though. For me, a couple of good watts is more than enough with La Scalas. Like Leo, I just don't need lots of power. Vacuum Tube Valley Magazine did an interesting piece on the combination of Klipschorns and low-power amplification. This article also included an interview with Paul Klipsch....here's a quote: "As far as equipment, it was homemade amplifiers. Also, I like an early amplifier of 1948 vintage made by Brook. The Brook amplifier used 2A3 tubes and put out 10 watts with very low distortion."

And from the VTV staff, "...at 104 dB sensitivity, any flea powered amp will work." Also this: Amplifier Recommendations: "Klipschorns are not a good match with high power amplifiers. High current amps that are required to drive and control less sensitive speakers are not needed. Big-Ticket solid state amps, that may sound good elswhere, will sound crowded and congested with the Klipschorns. Even ultra-linear push-pull amps don't have the finesse needed to keep the Klipschorns sounding sweet. Pentode-based tube amps can work, if they are low-wattage (under 35 wpc)and have a relaxed non-aggressive sound. Remember, the horns will supply all the dynamics needed; the amp needs to sound clean and transparent..."

"Any good triode amp, on lung or two, will make the Klipschorns sing." "A good 2A3 amp is scary-good with a K-horn, and similar results can be had with 300B amps as well."

These quotes were taken from Vacuum Tube Valley issue 13, Winter 2000

I have used a variety of different tube and solid state topologies, and nothing to me has the sense of realism and immediacy as low-power tube amplification. If higher wattage amps sounded as good, I would use them! I have experimented over years with this, and a single ended 2A3 amplifier provides just what I want.

It's all a personal thing, though, and what you choose must be best for you.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

I love the VPI Scout!!!!

I just can't afford one right now...

[shoe11]

Leo and Erik~

Thanks to both for your comments.

Erik, the Orchid is the integrated model and the Tulip is the straight power amp. Both 2A3's between 3.2 to 3.5 watts. Only about $100 between them. Of course that opens up a whole new can of worms that being going with an integrated unit or continuing with a seperate pre and power. The general sense I get when discussing this topic with SS is that the seperate approach is usually better, but is it worth the additional cost entailed by buying two units instead of one and also a 2nd run of interconnects. I'd be curious on how this issue is viewed by our tube members. I would assume what holds for SS would hold for tubes as well.

As for the SET issue for me it's simply a misconception that I plan to remove with experience. As an audiofile newbie, sensitivity is not exactly a spec many look at you know? You look at the size of the box and say, "Damn big speaker...gonna need at least 500watts" I have to laugh becuase I remember when I bought the RF-3's I was talking about getting a 250watt amp and worrying that might not be enough. Now I'm sitting here with the 7's and a very nice 130watt Rotel.....with the volume just barely moved to fill the room with sound. Just a mental thing to be able to accept that such a small amp can completely provide adequate power to such a big cabinet.

When I first posted this topic, being excited I stated I'd probably be purchasing something Wednesday. Now I've changed my mind I'm not buying until I've experienced quite a few models. In my rush I forgot one of the many reasons I enjoy this hobby so much and that's trying all kinds different gear in search of my own personal sound. So I'm going to try to hear the EL-34, EL-84, 6550, 2A3, 300B so I can learn for myself each tube's sound traits and then decide which one I like the best.

As for the Scout, it will definitely be on my list. I also have a local dealer who carries Linn and Rega so I have a decent selection of quality tables near me to hear. One step at a time though, new amp first.

~shoe

[Erik Mandaville]

What a great and honest post, Shoie (now I get it -- as in the helmet, right?) I like that bike, by the way! I used to have the scary-quick Yamaha R6 -- and sold that some a couple of years ago and now have a Cagiva Gran Canyon. I ride very early Sunday mornings before the traffic is too bad...

But anyway! I totally understand what you are saying about these puny little amps being able to power (and in many cases, over-power!)these gigantic speakers. But sensitivity is nonetheless an important consideration. By the way, I was aware that you wouldn't be using Klipschorns -- I used that information just to illustrate the fact that very satisfactory sound pressure levels are available with rather small power outputs.

I built several high quality speaker systems over the years (using drivers from companies like SEAS, Vifa, Peerless, Audax, etc.). They were all around 87 to 88 dB/watt/meter, and flew into the clipping range fairly quickly if used to try to fill a moderate sized room with good sound. But Man, as soon as I hooked my Lowther horns to the Moondogs, I was astonished at what those speakers could do with such a modest amount of power. The La Scalas are the same way, and RF-7s would be almost identical in that respect. Leo always reports very satisfactory volume levels, but I think his listening habits are much like my own. My interest in music listening has nothing to do with how loud I can make things without the music sounding distorted. Music played back at overly loud levels doesn't sound natural to me. I listen to lots of small ensemble Baroque period or acoustic jazz (tons of classical guitar, too), and to blast the crap out of music like that makes no sense to me whatever. I try to use the system as a tool to playback music as realistically as possible -- the 2A3 amplifier does that perfectly for me.

Thanks for the clarification on the orchid/tulip relationship. I don't know what to tell you about that, but I just prefer mono-block amps driven by a good tube preamp -- or if your sources are close to your amps, a high quality passive preamp. I used that very happily for a couple of years, until a furniture move-around put my preamp and sources 25 feet from the amplifiers. With that, the higher output impedances associated with the passive just couldn't handle the extra cable capacitance. High frequency info. got badly rolled off.

BTW: The first kit I built was an EL-84 stereo amp. It sounds incredible with the La Scalas. I use it for our second system with a pair of sloped front baffle speakers I built out of ceramic flue tile.

See ya,

Erik

[shoe11]

Erik~

Actually Shoe is my nickname due to the fact that my last name is Shoemaker. So the irony of my helmet being a Shoei and my nickname being very close to that confuses alot of people. Thanks for the compliment on my RC-51. I've ridden since I was 4 and nothing I've owned previously beats my V-Twin. Such a blast compared to an inline and Harley riders give the funniest looks when I roar past them. I've been a Honda guy all my life, but the R series from Yamaha are very nice bikes. Being a twin guy, I'm more familiar with Ducati than Cagiva but any model from either of those manufacturers should be a great bike. And yeah like you, I usually take my weekend ride early in the morning or if it's later in the day, I head west into the country to stay safe.

Let me ask a question of you and I'm sure other members can answer this...Are all of the SET units from Welborne and Wright kits that need to be assembled or can they be purchased ready to go? Perhaps a better question would be how hard and/or what kind of tools/skills does one need to have in order to build them? The reason I ask is twofold:

1)

relative to the ASL models and some other brands I've read about, the Welborne and Wright units appear to be more highly regarded for sound and quality thus more interesting to me from a purchase standpoint if I want to go SET.

and

2)

while I can build computers and motorcycles blindfolded, electronics construction is something I have no experience with and I'm not fond of the thought of spending good money for great SET quality and screwing it up.

After I had replied to this post last night, I got deeply into some SET research. I had been going through the SET forum on audioasylum and I kept asking myself, "who or what the hell is a moondog?" I know several members have them, but I had never really searched to get the scoop on them. After finally seeing a few pics of the moondogs, I went to the Welborne Labs homepage and started trying to find out the specs, prices, availability of the moondogs. I found the link for the new DRD SET monoblocks and the first line says, "OK, so the Moondogs and Laurels are history." "Doh!" At that point I gave up on the moondog idea, and I started looking into these new DRD monos. I'm thinking, "cool they sell a 300B, 2A3, and a 45" So I pull the price list for the 300B and just for that model alone there ends up being about 10 different prices, but unfortunately I don't find one that says, "We'll build the unit here, box and ship it to you. All you do is unbox, bias, connect and power up."

I'd appreciate anyone's comments. I'd also be curious people's thoughts/impressions on these new DRD models. Has anyone here purchased or even heard them yet?

Going tomorrow to hear my first EL-34 based unit the CAV-50, also will hear the Musical Fidelity and YBA units. After hearing so many positive almost euphoric comments on tube gear, I'm anxious to hear it for myself. Also spoke today with my dealer that carries Creek, VPI, Music Hall and got some good information on each. Tomorrow should prove to be a fun day.

~shoe

[edster00]

shoe11,

Ron Welborne does offer his amps factory built, but he doesn't always advertise that option. I would suggest you contact him via phone or email and ask him if he would build them and at what price.

As far as Moondogs go, they can still be found on the used market occasionally, and at a pretty good savings to boot! Cut-Throat just picked up a pair of Moondogs at AudiogoN, but if and when you see a pair you have to act quickly. They never last for more than a few hours.

[Erik Mandaville]

Shoe:

Ironic, indeed about the helmet/nickname thing.

On Welborne amps: Ron used to openly advertise the factory built option. Like Ed says, I'm sure you could work something out with him on that point. I believe he had some problems with people who were just curious about how the Moondogs or other amps then-offered sounded -- they would order an amplifier; he would build it; they would listen to it for a little while; and then sometimes just send them back, saying they didn't care for the sound. For a small business like his, I totally understand why he wouldn't be interested in getting into that situation again.

My opinion is that the DRD amplifiers would be a very good choice, and probably equal to the Moondogs in terms of performance. The circuit is actually quite a simple one, which is a good thing. I actually got very close to building the original version of this...it was designed by Jack Eliano, who also supplies the power and output transformers for Ron's amps. If Ron isn't building these anymore, you could certainly give it a shot, but I would suggest some good practice at soldering first. I would even be very willing to help out with this if you would like. I have been soldering as long as you've been riding bikes, and very much enjoy the process. But I'm not Ron Welborne, of course!!! Call him him about it though.

As for the Wright amplifiers: George Wright is also a well-respected designer, and you probably would be equally happy with a Wright 2A3 amplifier. The parts used are maybe just a little less expensive than those supplied with the Welborne stuff, but I know one person who is experienced with both amplifiers; is good friends with both of the designers, and who told me the new Wright 2A3 is just a killer of an amplifier. He said his jaw dropped when he heard it. Mind you, this same person also owns Welborne Moondogs and Laurels. The Wright amplifiers come already built in a rugged chassis, that is perhaps just a little more utilitarian-looking then the Welbornes.

You might also want to check out the Moth Audio 2A3 amps. In one well-regarded tube oriented publication I get, it was preferred to all the 2A3 amplifiers tested, including the Welborne Moondogs -- which also got very good reviews, however.

Good luck with this search -- let us know if we can help!

Erik

[Dave Harris]

I don't think that volume will be a problem, so I wouldn't worry about that too much. I am using the 50 watt modified Jolida 302b with my RF-7's and I can get a moderately loud listening volume with the knob in the 9:30-10 o'clock position. At 11, it is really loud enough to rock out at parties and at 12, it would probably get me evicted.

The only thing I had problems with was lack of bass with the Jolida / Klipsch combination. It sounds fine with my subwoofer on, but there seems to be nothing below about 80hz without it.

Dave