Craig6519 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 I've pretty much sold all my solid state equipment. I have a complete Klipsch Legened surround sound system right now. Here are a couple questions. 1. Will tubes make a difference with my KLF-30's? or is heritage the only way to go? 2. I want a Integrated Tube for LP's and CD's, can a tube system be upgraded for surround sound use? How? 3. I'm setting my limit at about $750 any reccomendations? Oh the turntable I have is a Denon DP-37F if that make's a difference. I hope these aren't dumb questions but I know nothing about tubes and I'm intrigued about what I've read here. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig6519 Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 Nobody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 I just took the tube plunge. Here are the answers that I can speak to in response to your questions: 1. Yes, tubes will warm up KLF-30s. Is Heritage better? Ear of the beholder. Most guys on hear swear by Heritage by I think tubes will warm any Klipsch system IMHO from what I've read. 2. Don't knw about HT but I suspect yes. Others can answer that better than I. 3. Yes--under $750 with cash to spare. Do this: Get a hold of Craig at www.nosvalves.com and get him to rebuild a Scott 299A or B for you. Watch eBay for a decent used unit. Whole deal should run around $500. You will hear the Scott and never go back to solid state. Ever. Nuff said. Mike Forte IIs Scott 299A NOSValves Rebuild Rega Planet CD Player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 1. Will tubes make a difference with my KLF-30's? or is heritage the only way to go? I think tubes will sound different on most any speaker. On Klipsch I think they help with the emphasized high end. The effeciencey of any Klipsch model makes them a good match for low power tube amplification. I think a tube pre-amp is the most important. You could use a SS amp if you want fast, driving bass and rock concert volume...although you can get high SPL volume w/tubes and Klispch. 1812 w/cannons tends to want high power SS. KLF-30's have a different voice than heritage but many of the same characteristics of Klipsch speakers. 2. I want a Integrated Tube for LP's and CD's, can a tube system be upgraded for surround sound use? How? The Scott integrated box will give you LP and CD. If you want surround sound most of us simply use the tube amp to drive the front two speakers and the AV Receiver or a pre/pro to feed the tube amp and SS drive the surrounds....thus no tube pre-amp in surround sound. There has been talk of tube surround sound but it seemed high dollar and I didn't pay much attention. You must also either have a pre w/pass-through or swap cables to go back to all tubes for 2-channel. Even with transister based electronics a 2-channel pre-amp is preferred over pre/pros unless you have a high dollar unit like a Meridian pre/pro. The mixture of 2-channel and surround sound is tough. It is best to have two rooms and two systems. 3. I'm setting my limit at about $750 any reccomendations? NOS Valves -- Scott 299b -- ~$500 separate amp along with a separate pre-amp with phono might put you over the limit. If you didn't need the phono stage then you might be able to use a Bottlehead Foreplay pre-amp or AES line stage and a separate amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 I don't think there are many tube ht options available, although I do remember at least one tube based processor being mentioned - don't know a thing about it though. The problem is that if you want a 5.1 set up for ht, for example, you cannot get aroung solid state digital sound processing (dolby digital, dts, etc.). Although there is nothing stopping you from getting 5 tube monoblock amplifiers for your ht system, they would be attached to a solid state preamp for the decoding. Thats my guess anyway...more help may be available in the ht forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig6519 Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 Thanks alot. Does the scott 299A/B have pass through so that I wouldn't have to swap cables? If I shop for a used Scott what should I be looking for, I see you said Craig @ Nosvalves could do it all for about $500, Is that to rebuild it after the purchase or total cost on an average Sctt amp? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig6519 Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 I see on ebay there is a Scott 299C and a 299D, are these a good choice as well? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Send a message to Craig, NOS valves. He can give you a better idea. Also check this forum, going back several pages and read. You should find what you are looking for. You could also type in Scott 299 in the search box and then start reading. A price for a fixed up Scott 299 integrated amp would be in the $500 range, all fixed up. It will depend on whether it has a case and it's condition. You would also have shipping, once from the person you purchase it from to Craig and once from him to you. Craig does very good work and there are many satisfied customers here on the forum, including me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Craig----Tubes ain't better, just different. Many like inaccurate tube amps that act as EQ to color Klipsch speakers in a way they find attractive but that ain't accuracy. I've owned LaScalas and Cornwalls and run them with both SS and tubes but the best sound I had was with a 200 wpc SS Dynanco amp. Some say if you try tubes you'll never go back but that's nonsense, I know many hornies who've gone back and forth between tubes and SS as I have. So try a tube amp and see what YOU think. Some tube amps sound good with low coloration and others sound rich and sweet and some sound grainy and strained, who knows what you'll like. And if you go vintage old Fisher tube stuff is better sounding, classier and better built than that Scott stuff, try a Fisher 400 tube receiver, has a good tuner too. Or try a pair of 80AZ mono power amps or the very sweet 12 wpc SA-100 power amp. If they go on the bum send them to Bizzy Bee in Naperville Illinois for service. And ASL Wave 8s for an incredible 100 bucks or so per channel sound so good you could plotz, at least from 500hz up. Actually the ASL stuff sounds so good I wouldn't bother with vintage stuff unless you just like cool old stuff. The Wave 8s aound accurate but if you want that rich, chocolatey sound many tubies like they make a 15 wpc integrated that fits the bill. I owned one for a couple of years, used it on Altec horn speakers, and loved the sound though I never kidded myself it was accurate. The guy I sold it too loves it too, he's very happy. Mind now, most of this is my opinion and not statements of fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Tom's a renegade. I bet he's a Union man too! Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Keith----Renegade, that was a good Thin Lizzy song. "He's just a boy that has lost his way....." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 dflip wins coolest avatar award. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 My very limited tube experience excatly mirrors Tom's. I found the Wave-8s to be competent, but unremarkable and went back to my Parasound power amps. I expect my system to ruthlessly reproduce all that is on the source, good or bad. I did not think the tube amps did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 It seems one big attraction to tubes with Klipsch is that a typical $1k modern AVR and Klipsch (I'll speak for my Cornwalls and Outlaw 1050) drive the tweeter to dominate the sound. Many rock recordings seem to have notable cymbal rhythms that with this setup are magnatudes more dominant than other speakers. Some high pitched guitar notes can as Kelly says "pierce your skull"...and that's only at 85db. Your typical new $1k SS AVR + cd player with Klipsch Heritage seems to be a horrible combination--where many modest priced modern speakers sound much better with today's consumer electronics. Now maybe the biggest contributor is the $1k AVR and other combos may be just fine: * tube pre + SS amp + quality dedicated 2-channel SS + expensive SS pre/pro + SS amps (ie Meridian) It seems Klipsch color the sound bright and some tubes are needed to color the sound warmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I disagree with some of what is said here, as usual, and want to add a few fruits to the salad: A lot of the old people are dropping off the board and I see a lot of new opinions weighing in. That is not bad. In fact, it is good. There is NO equipment list or audio history in our profiles and newbies do not know who to listen to. So for me, I have to judge the value of these new opinions all over again in the context of their other remarks. I say this because Tom Brennan, John Albright, NOS and other knowledgeable posters are right on the money. They have a wealth of experience with horns and I pay a lot of attention to what they say. I too lived with big old Cornwall horns for almost two decades. I lived with them with a high power, 750-watt peak RMS power per channel, Carver SS amplifier and a low power, pure Class A Pioneer SS amplifier (with THD as low at 10 watts as a $17,000 per pair Krell FBP 350mc). I also lived with classic Dynaco ST70s monoblocks and now delicate Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours monoblocks with AK-2 Khorns. 1. Tube amplification does affect the quality of the sound across the board - in the bass, the mid-range and the treble. Because the tube amplifiers are more easily pushed around by the wild or low impedance curves of the loudspeakers, they DO sound different with each loudspeaker. Not so the SS amplifier. The solid state amplifier does sound more uniform from loudspeaker to loudspeaker than the tube ones. 2. It also does depend greatly on what type and how loud your music is and your experience and goals are. You can tell what kind of music, and what experience the reviewer is shooting for, by the music he reviews equipment with, but you do NOT usually know that information about posters on a forum. They rarely say what they are aiming for in their movie and music reproduction systems. For example, where I once sought to recreate the boisterous and loud push of rock n roll concerts in the home, I now realize that I can do that with a huge array of woofers and lots of cheap SS power. But that doesnt sit well with little miss sensitive ears or the rest of my movie and music tastes. Instead, I now seek to replicate as closely as possible some of the more intimate and natural acoustic sessions of female vocals and small jazz groups. According to a Stereophile survey, the typical home movie and music reproduction system investment is from $3 to 6K with a few piece as old as ten to 15 years. The good news is that in this area, modest and typical movie and music reproduction systems can excel without a huge investment. A carefully assembled sound system in that price range can compete with some very expensive and superlative systems in many regards, but especially the accurate, almost realistic sonic 3D illusion of live vocals, imaging and soundstage. In other words, I cant easily or inexpensively recreate leather-clad Sheryl Crows chest pounding bass at West Palm Beachs Sunfest concert last night (05/01/03) in my own home. BUT, I can fool myself, sometimes, into thinking that Diana Krall, k.d. lang or Norah Jones are indeed, somehow, just beyond my front wall, or that the guitar player really is, somehow, just off to my left! When it works, the illusion is wonderful. I have heard some gorgeous dream systems in the last two years: $70K Martin-Logan Statements (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0902/deprecating.htm), $100K Nearfield Pipedreams and $25K Avantgarde Acoustics Unos, Duos and Trios (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0203/uptownhorns.htm). All of them properly matched with equally jaw-dropping front-end equipment. YET, I can make a limited, magical 3D sonic illusion of a small group performance easier, and at least as good, with big old horns and tube amplifiers for a whole lot less! In my own home! For this trick, you need almost perfect loudspeaker positioning and probably some room treatment. I also think you need either Vibration Isolation Platforms for the CD player or clean vinyl, plus active subwoofers with plentiful solid state power to get that last octave. Even with big old Khorns that accurately reach down to 30-Hz. 4. Not everybody is going for the same thing in this hobby. I have a good friend who likes classical vinyl especially flawless discs for less than a buck. He doesnt appreciate my big old horns at all and usually likes other qualities about the loudspeakers I review, which I do mention, but hardly notice. I thought the Coincident Triumph Signatures, for example, were bland, muted and dull on different tube and SS amplifiers. He thought the Triumph Signatures with his ASL Wave 8s tube monoblocks had depth, depth and depth. Go figure. I have another friend, who loans me his massive and incredible Pass X250 amplifier for my experiments, that could care less about soundstage and imaging. He is not going to congest his living room by pulling five loudspeakers away from the walls to create a sonic 3D image. Yet his current set-up, with B&W loudspeakers, kicks some Feyhadeen butt! On the other hand, quite a few of my friends spend about half as much money as I do on stereo systems whose number one quality is that they are heard, but not seen. Of course, the sound from such tiny little jewel cubes is just so engaging and enticing, that most of the time the white boxes are neither heard nor seen! NOT! They have the expensive system, but they rarely listen to music. Go figure again. Some like apples, some like oranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig6519 Posted May 2, 2003 Author Share Posted May 2, 2003 I saw on a few sites that I can pick up a new Jolida for $750 don't remember the model # but there was one for $550 too. Any opinions on how these compare to the older tube amps? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 It certainly caught my attention when I stubbled upon it. The avitar is "I Saw the Figure 5 in Gold" 1928 by Charles Demouth of Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I was searching for something to replace the curling stone now that the ice is gone and I am restricted to hitting around little white balls. I was looking at Canadian Art and happened upon a website that featured artwork from many different periods and styles. When I came upon I Saw the Figure 5 in Gold, it was an easy choice for an avitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I have a Jolida 202b and just got a Scott 299A a few days ago. I will post a review soon but quite honestly I think the Scott is going to win out. Better bass and better imaging for sure and I've only had time to listen to it for a couple hours. I spent $750 new and upgraded the tubes. The Jolida is definitly a step up from solid state--don't get me wrong. I thnik they are great amps. And they can be a bargain on the used market. The Jolida 102B uses the same output tubes (or very similar) as the Scott's and may sounbd better as well unless you are a heavy metal jammer. It is priced new at $580. I think the Scott 299A and B are the preferred amps to get--the C and D models use diffent types of tubes and one of the later models uses very expensive output tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig6519 Posted May 3, 2003 Author Share Posted May 3, 2003 Being that I'm completely new in the tube arena, How come company's like Jolida don't have Phono built into there amps? I want to use my turntable, I only have about 100 albums but really miss the hassle of cleaning them zapping them with my anti static gun, then playing 30-40 minutes of music before i have to get back up and change the record. Do I have to lookat the old classics to get phono? Oh yeah and budget is a huge concern so if your going to point out some $10,000 tube amp don't show me because I'll sell my truck to buy it then my wife will kill me. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 No need for $10k dude. Just get a Scott for $500 rebuilt and call it good. Nothing wrong with old classic. Albums are old classic. Although I don't have any. LOL. So, $500 for a Scott, rebuilt, leaves you $9,500 for albums. The rebuilt Scott will likely outlive most of us on the boards here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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