Deang Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 "What really kills me is your posting everything about what triode does and doesn't do from things you have read and you personally have never heard the amps that are being discussed in this thread." Let's back up a little. Dee originally said/asked: "Also have read several posts about Craig of NOSValves turning out a very nice ST-70. In their descriptions both Craig and AK talk about triode power. This would result in sound similar to SET? Also some parts from Curcio? I'd sure welcome hearing your take on these and other possible options, in terms of strengths, weakensses, etc. Does one do well to get rid of the EL34's? Don't the Mark III's retain those in most mods?" I just thought some clarification was in order, so I said what I thought. I ended my original response by saying that it was system dependant, and that some people liked it and some people don't -- which is the truth. I know that whether it flies or not is dependant on speakers, room, music, listening habits, etc -- I think I harp on that more around here than anyone, so you know I know this stuff, and you're not telling me anything I don't know. I'm not stranger to this stuff, that's why I went last year going through all of those amps. I had the $3000 Apollo SET amps, and the two different renditions of the "triode" push-pull AE-25's over here. Though sweet as all get out, I didn't like the midrange drilling a hole in my head at 95db. I just don't feel I HAVE to hear a MK III or ST-70 wired this way to have a general feel or idea for the differences between PP "triode", DHT triode, and UL. I also dont't think not hearing some specific amp denies me an opinion about the mod. I didn't just read threads at the Asylum to form my opinion. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I can read and comprehend. In fact, I ran across it again last night reading a review about the Cary Rocket 88. "Pentodes like the KT-88 are converted to triodes by connecting their three grids together instead of having them separate. It is not quite the same thing as a dedicated triode (which has one grid to begin with), but it comes close." No matter how you slice it -- it's cheating the circuit. I loved both of my Superamps. I don't think I ever said a bad thing about them. I especially miss the DJH version at times. I have no problem with the mod from an audible standpoint at most normal listening levels. My opinion however is that if someone wants triode, they should just go for the real deal. 2A3 PP can crank out 20 watts and be had for under $1000. If someone ALREADY has something like the MK III's and wants to do it -- that's great, but I don't see much logic in seeking them out just to cut their balls off. I know enough to know that the transformers used for UL and triode are very different. Each has been optimized for the particular circuit, running with the particular tube. "Well I can guarantee you the amp is setup to run perfect in one mode or the other so that is a really twisted comparison. If its not optimized for UL or Triode output then its less then what it could be in both situations." This is really a good point, and you got me. I was actually thinking about this late last night reading the Rocket reviews for Dee. I ran across some comments that make no sense to me at all. You're statement kind of brings it into focus. "The Rocket 88 also has a user selectable ultralinear mode, which puts out twice as much power (40 watts per channel). Of course, the output tubes are then no longer being used as triodes, so the sound of the amp changes. We found that these sonic changes were for the worse, so we dont recommend that you use the Rocket 88 in this higher power mode. The sound became thinner and pinched (losing that beautiful golden glow), upper midrange glare was introduced where there was none before, and we heard some distortion in place of the very clean purity of triode mode. In ultralinear mode, this amp sounded like most other competing tetrode and pentode push-pull tube amps (tolerably OK, but nothing special). The Rocket 88s special magic is clearly in its triode mode." These comments are the complete opposite of what I usually run across. Especially as it relates to amps by Rogue Audio, Conrad Johnson, and other Cary amps. So, O.K. -- I'll keep my shut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Not sure what you mean by circuits. My tube experience comes from what I have read here. But if you are referring to Triode mode, I am unsure. You mentioned triode on the front end leaving the output UL. What is the benefit? I want to keep the output UL (linear). I hae rear that the power supply can be changed for the better. Doest this explain what I am looking for? Still around $300. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 I'm trying really hard not to be an "audiophile", but just to understand things from the technical point of view. Your explanations help quite a bit. Why does everything seem so contradictory? Where does all the B.S. come from? It's like this hobby is over-run with it. I look at this triode thing, and I just see less headroom, less Class A, less efficiency, less bandwidth -- yet is sounds so "great". I just don't get it. Are these things not that important in the grand scheme of things? Was Kelly right all along (and think about this carefully before you answer -- what was it he said? The outcomes are unpredictable, and only once implemented can one really tell if the results are positive. Wasn't this his mantra? I was half passed out in my listening chair last night listening to the system -- with those 8 ohm resistors hanging off of my 4 ohm taps. It sounds really good. I was thinking about the same thing then. Screwing with the circuit, and coming out with this wonderful sound. I have 1/2 the power (at least I think I do -- I can't even figure that out since my amps are supposed to be 60 watts whether I'm on 8 ohm taps or 4 ohm taps), 1/2 as much Class A output, pretty much 1/2 of everything that's supposed to be good. Does simply flattening out the impendance curve and presenting consistancy to the amp yield better sonics than having all of the other goodies? Maybe in my system - yes? I'm am seriously considering taking a good electronics course or two. I just don't see how anyone can be serious about this hobby floating from BS to BS. On the Rocket deal -- yeah, that's it. At least that's the way I understand it: http://www.caryaudio.com/articles/new_design.shtml The the thing is -- Dennis H. builds some very good sounding gear. Is another one of my heros full of sh!t too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 The rocket88 sounds interesting. Anyone have one to compare? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 They appear to very nice amps -- but they sure end up on AudiogoN often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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