jt1stcav Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 In the late 80's I purchased the little passive Dynaco black box (model PS-1?) and two RadioShack mini-monitors with the linium(?) film tweeters...it worked fine (as any Hafler design would), but didn't really do anything for me. I've found that over the years two channel serves my needs just fine. I have absolutely nothing against multichannel SACD/DVD-A or any ambience recovery systems. But having my Cornwalls placed just right in my room, I can achieve a 3-dimensional soundstage (with loads of front/back/side depth and imaging), that sometimes I think I hear sounds coming from either the sides or even in back of the room...all with just two channels! With just the right recordings, the experience can be quite eerie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 17, 2003 Share Posted September 17, 2003 Well, Jim, you're a person whose opinion I respect. OTOH, your test was not exactly under the best conditions. I still have 4 of those speakers around, and they are probably the best cheap speakers you can get, and if you were using 4 of them, it should have sounded pretty good. If you were using some different speakers that did not match acoustically, the results would be variable to less than satisfying. I simply cannot figure how you can hear sounds from behind you with 2 speakers and no SRS, Ambisonics, or some other psychoacoustic process. Just doesn't add up. However, I make it a habit to try to avoid questioning what others experience as that way lies either insanity, self deification, or worse. I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me to send out of phase information that should be in the rear to the front. How can that be right? How can it add to the realism of the reproduction? How can it be considered fidelity, high or otherwise? I think Hafler's genius is underappreciated and his ideas not well understood. As a very natural process, setup of a Hafler system is very delicate and requires well matched components and a bit of experience. Perhaps I'll get an education from you next time the PAW wants to take the kids to Wally World. Frankly, I've had enough of that surround experience... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Likewise Dave. You're a person whose "in the know" when it comes to making high quality recordings, and I always appreciate your comments. As far as actually hearing sounds behind or beside me with stereo recordings...it's not something I experience every time. Maybe only with certain recordings; I seem to notice this effect with some highly mixed pop and rock recordings, whose use of highly processed multiple tracks and sound effects seem to expand the soundstage wider than the two loudspeakers. I don't know; maybe I'm just imagining things...for example when I used to play my Dark Side of the Moon LP, I could swear I'd hear one of the many mechanical clocks ringing from behind me, the imaging was that wide to me. When I had the tiny passive Dynaco, I was using my JBL L112s with the little Optimus monitors (thus not being well matched). The one time the Hafler design sounded very good to me was when my youngest brother let me borrow his tiny Dynaco 2-way monitors (similar to the Optimus) on 40" stands in place of the JBLs...the ambience was much more noticable without bringing more attention to itself. In other words, I could hear a 3-dimensional soundstage without being overly processed in the rear channel. Even though the effect was interesting (same as watching DVD movies through a DD/DTS HT system IMO; I know the multichannel processing done on DVDs and SACDs aren't the same as the Hafler process and are much more pronounced), it doesn't really do anything for me in the long run. Guess that's why I didn't mind watching my stereo VHS tapes through my ol' Sony Hi-Fi VCR. When I listen to my bro's Diana Krall SACD through his state-of-the-art HT/audio system, the effects are interesting indeed, but I seem to like the disc better when played through my plain-jane CD player through my stereo system. I can see your point on how multichannel recordings don't seem to make much sense to the realism of the reproduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 JM, Thanks for the offer. It is very seldom that I get through Milwaukee, but when I do, will try to check in with you to see if there might be a good time to check out your Heritage HT. Sounds cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 This discussion makes me a little curious about the Promedia DD-5.1 (if I've got the name right). Wonder what it does in four channel mode? Anyone have experience with this little rascal??? It seems to be priced reasonably. At one point I was wondering about using five SET monoblocks with this for HT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Good explanation of your experience, Jim. As I'd said, Hafler is a very subtle experience done properly, and tightly matched speakers and months of living with it are required to get it right. Listening position is critical. Even a couple of feet can make a huge difference...not that it is necessaryly that much better or worse, just different. You know, I have 4 of the little Optimus 7 metal case speakers. I take them camping and to remote gathering of old friends. They are the toughest, best sounding speakers in thier relatively narrow category. As to hearing sounds coming from odd directions whilst listening to Dark Side, no surprise from someone who came of age in the 60's... There was something about that music, or maybe it was something else. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 ..."As to hearing sounds coming from odd directions whilst listening to Dark Side, no surprise from someone who came of age in the 60's... There was something about that music, or maybe it was something else." Naw, man...it wasn't like drug induced, man. Like, I quit tokin' of the weed years ago, man...it's just far out and groovy, man. Like, wow man, it's just a few dead brain cells is all, man...nothin' hard core, ya dig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 JIM: Got to thinking about this, and since you are into pipe organs you are familiar with the wondrous immersion in sound when listening to one in a truly awesome acoustic space. That just never happens, nor, IMOH, can it happen without either 4 discrete channels or ambience recovery. Now, again, before I get tossed out of the two channel group, there is plenty of intimate jazz, rock and roll, and similar material that doesn't gain much from either ambience recovery or 4 channel discrete, though it is still more a matter of the recording methodology than it is the material. I hope to explore this more fully in the next couple of years. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 That's so true, Dave. Those large, reverberant spaces do the acoustics well, and with proper organ recordings, can achieve a 3-dimensional soundscape with Hafler's process. Now imagine being inside an organ chamber while the instrument's actually being played! That's THE ultimate surround sound experience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 True Story of College High Jinx Little Southern State College at Magnolia Arkansas had a wonderful little 16 rank organ by a Kansas builder whose name I've forgotten. It was in a hundred seat or so recital hall that had been built entirely to suit it. The entire instrument is exposed on a platform above the stage with the swell box near the front. During a regular recital by Kenton Stellwagen, superb organist and graduate of the Paris Conservatory, I had a bit of fun. He was playing the great Franck Chorale, which makes extensive use of the swell. As he reached the first climax where the swell shutters open wide coming up from the dark, moody opening, the audience gasped to see a figure hanging inside the swell box swinging gently to the music. Just barely avoided being kicked into the Army, but it was well worth it. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 LOL! I think the little organ you mentioned was built by the Reuter Organ Co. of Lawrence, KS. My question is what in the hell were you doing inside the Swell box to begin with? That would have been hysterical, I think! Unfortunantly, this picture is more disturbing than funny...in 2000 when my dad was tuning our 19 rank organ, my younger brother was helping him hold tuning tools, and was holding up one of the 8' Oboe's resonators while my dad was below repositioning the pipe's boot. My youngest bro Charles was taking pictures at the time and didn't even see Tom and the stupid face he was making behind the pipes while he was holding up the resonator...Kids! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Indeed, a Reuter. It was a either a wonderful instrument, or a decent instrument in a great space, or both. I was there for the purpose. Had a noose my frat used for different (still non-lethal) purposes. Same year I visited PWK in his lab. What a year!h Those were great days... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 A noose? Were you pretending to be hanging from it? Did you tie this make-shift noose off one of the tall, mitred Diapasons? Wow, it's a wonder you didn't give some poor old lady a heart attack doing that funny stunt. It's also a wonder you weren't kicked out for that. But I would've paid good money to see that...what a frieght that must have been for some in the audience! Ah, the good ol' days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 The swell was quite rigidly constructed of 2X4's and I tied off one of those. The noose was one like Hollywood constructed to actually suspend one ala Hollywood. Pretty goof proof and used to scare pledges. One the saw one of their brother pledges (who cooperated, of course) hanging in a cemetery in the middle of the night, they'd get real cooperative. OTOH, the stunt would have been a big tragic if I'd fallen, as the little flutes would have impaled me in a rather disgusting manner. Wonder what the Franck would have sounded like... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Ol' Cesar would've been pretty disgusted with that performance, I would think. When I was about 15, we were on an emergency call at a tiny 4 rank chapel organ in New Britian, CT. I was helping my dad on a last-minute releathering job on some blown pouchboards on an offset pneumatic chest. I got bored rather easily while my dad was doing all the work, so I started blowing on a few little 2' Principal pipes. My dad didn't mind that much (we had to tune the little instrument afterwards anyway), but he got rather disgusted with me after I started belching through them! I had to sit in a pew out in the chapel for the remainder of the repair! Later it was time for me to hold keys at the console while my dad tuned the pipes. What made matters even worse is when I started falling asleep at the organ bench when my dad would yell out "next" for me to hold down the next key. Seeing that the attached console was only a few feet from the entire instrument, my dad immediately got my attention by throwing a spool of solder square on top of my head! Needless to say, I stayed awake for the remainder of the tuning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 I'd love to meet your dad someday. He's got to be a hoot. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Not when you're on the "receiving" end he's not! Oh, he's funnier than you'll ever know, but this is a family-oriented forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 As a farewell note to a fun thread. Talk about hijacking! A long way from goodbye 5.1 to hanging in a swell box. Sorry about that. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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