Rudy81 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Has anyone swapped their AL-3 crossover for an ALK? I am curious as to how much differance you heard if you did? I have searched the forums, but can't seem to find that comparrison listed. The reason for my question is that I have a set of Belles with ALK's and a new La Scala as my center channel with an AL-3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I did an A/B listening for someone with the ALK in a pair of LaScalas to a Pair of Klipschorns with the AK-3. I was letting him hear the differances between some stock LaScala networks, because he wanted to buy a pair of the ALKs for the LaScalas that we just picked up for him. This was for Mike Lindsey, some of you will remember him and this topic. First we did an A/B with the AL and the AA. We both selected the AA. By the way, Mike didn't know what speaker had what network in it. Now me switched out the AL to the ALK. Mike and I prefered the ALK. I was geting lazy, because we were also comparing some other speakers that day so I didn't put an AL-3 in a LaScala, I just hooked up a AK-3 Klipschorn that was in the room. I told him that I wanted him to tell me the differance in the sound between the midrange and tweeters, to try not to pay attention to the bass. I know I should have used a LaScala with the AL-3 but this had to be getting into the sixth hour of this. We both might have heard a slight difference in the tweeter, but we agreed that they were so close that it wouldn't be worth changing to the ALK. I can probably find this old topic if you feel the need to read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 Q-Man: Thanks for the response. I had actually read that discussion earlier today. I noted that you did use the AK-3 with the Khorn and I posted this message wondering if anyone had done a true AL-3 to ALK comparrison. For the time being, I think my AL-3 will be just fine. However, way in the back of my mind, having 3 ALK's seems like the optimum solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flason Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Q-Man, Did you compare the ALK to the AA in the LaScala? Just wondering what your impression was of that difference. Also, have you heard the old type A networks in the Khorns. I just got through refinishing a pair of '69 Khorns with the type A and was wondering about the difference between it and both the AA and ALK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Your right, all the speakers should be the same. Please don't take this wrong. You are using Belles and a LaScala. To my ears there is a differance between the Belle and the LaScala. I like the sound of the LaScala mid horn more then the Belle. You are now hearing differences when the sound travels from left, right, and center. The networks will make less of a difference then the mismatched horns are making that you are now listening to. The Belle horn is just too small. The Belle was a speaker designed for beauty and mades even more compromises to please a woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Flason, I've been reading your post about your Fir Klipschorns, very nice clean up. Yes the ALK and the AA were compared in the LaScala. The ALK is much cleaner and refined. One thing that no one ever mentions is that the bass is even cleaner sounding with the ALK, Something to do with harmonics. I never heard the A network, so I can't say nothing about it. But I doubt that it's better then the ALK in it's stock form. The parts used in these networks make a big difference. For example I dislike the stock AA, but I have a pair built with all Hovland caps, and foil chokes. This hot rodded pair of AAs are the best sounding networks that I've heard so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I shouldn't say this now, because I havn't made up my mind yet. But I might be selling the AA networks. I need a non Klipsch design to work better with a Klipschorn mod that I've been working on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flason Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Q-Man, Thanks for the quick reply. I was under the impression from reading through the forums that the AA's were always preferred to the other stock networks and were very close to the ALK's. I guess I was wrong. I'm defiantly curious as to how these Khorns would sound with other networks in them. I guess I was accustomed to the LaScala's sound that my ears are going to need a little time to adjust. Rudy, Sorry for the thread hijack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 "I was under the impression from reading through the forums that the AA's were always preferred to the other stock networks and were very close to the ALK's." I went from AAs to ALKs in my LaScalas and definitly prefered the ALKs. First off the autoformer let me better balance the squaker level in with the rest of the speaker. It helped cure the harshness of the K55v/K400 and the speaker had a little more top end. It was a nice upgrade IMO. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Yes the ALK has it all over the stock AA. The ALK is a modified AA design and being able to change the tap setting is a nice touch. The AA I had built for me is a stright Klipsch design, but with a cost no objest for the parts. It's the stock AL-3 that is very close sounding to the ALK, not the stock AA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 Q-Man: There is most definately a differance between the Belle and La Scala. To be honest, I don't know if it is in the mid range or tweeter, but I can hear the differance when using pink noise to balance the speakers for HT use. Mind you, the differance is very minor, but it is there. Interestingly, the Belles and La Scala that I have have the same drivers in them. The only differances are the crossovers, horn and cabinet. When I get some time I might pull one of my ALk's out of my Belles and put it in a La Scala and compare the balancing networks. Thank you for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Q-Man, "The ALK is a modified AA design and being able to change the tap setting is a nice touch." There is more to it then that though too. The AA is just a high pass for the squaker driver. ALK is a bandpass for the squaker. I've measured both the K55V (spring clip) and K55M and they both have output peaks (ringing?) above 6k (high pass point to the tweeter in the AA). The ALK limits that output of the squaker above 6k and I think that is what removes the harshness of the K55/k400. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Shawn, I agree with you. I liked the ALK so much at first that I bought another pair. Now I sold both pairs. I dislike the ALK because of it's lack of tweeter protection and it's fuse protection. I think I run more wattage into LaScalas and Klipschorns then anyone on this forum. This is somewhat do to room size. I replaced two pairs of tweeter diaphragms. I also can't turn up the volume to my liking with the ALK without blowing it's fuse. I have to bypass the fuse. The ALK sound is so close to the AL-3 and the AK-3 that they had to become my preference. Paul was right about sacrificing a little sound quality as power amps grew in power and people like me were frying drivers. The ALK is more for the low power Tube Heads. We all have are preferences and needs,that's why we tweak and share ideas. The ALK is also very usefull for one who want's to experiment with drivers other then the K55, because you can attenuate them. This was usefull to me at first. I ruled out a few drivers including the 55, something that I wouldn't have been able to do without this network. Al was also very helpfull. I solved the harshness and ringing of the K55 and K400 by replacing them. Then the AlK began to fail me here. It wouldn't let some of these different drivers crossover at 400Hz. where the Klipsch networks would or in some cases at least come closer. But again this wasn't the intention behind the ALK. I found John Warrens AA to sound just as good if not better and I don't have to be affraid to turn up the volume. Al even warns you about the lack of tweeter protection. I realize that my case is unique, and I'm not saying not to use the ALK. I'm just giving you other options and my reason for them. I now coming to an end with my project and search for a better sounding midrange driver, horn, and tweeter. John's AA is now going to be replaced with a more custom designed network, because the Klipsch design doesn't work for my driver choices. It's late for me and I'm not thinking too clearly right now so I want to end this untill later. To sum it up. The ALK could be your best choice for low power users. The AL-3 and AK-3 are just fine. They are almost as nice as the ALK and don't need to be replaced, there won't be much to gain and bang for the buck here. If you want to better the sound of the AK-3 and AL-3 more to the liking of the ALK and still want to protect your speakers build the AA using the highest quality parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 " I dislike the ALK because of it's lack of tweeter protection and it's fuse protection. " As you found the fuse can be bypassed very easily and then it would just be like any other of the crossovers without that protection in it. As far as tweeter protection I added it to my ALKs but I haven't had it kick in yet. It is very cheap and easy to add it in if desired. I think it cost under $5 in parts. "The ALK is also very usefull for one who want's to experiment with drivers other then the K55" I agree there since I have been doing the same thing. The A and AA (maybe the AL too) are very bad networks to experiment with other drivers in since changing taps alters the crossover points in them and if the midrange driver is of a wider range then the K55s you would get a lot more interference between the mid and tweeter. "I now coming to an end with my project and search for a better sounding midrange driver, horn, and tweeter." Where are you ending up? I'll be trying a different crossover in my La Scalas in the near future too. I am pulling the ALKs to replace them with a different design from Al K basically. I ended up with Altec 902-8Bs in my La Scalas on 511B horns. The work fine with the regular ALKs but with its 6k cutoff it is wasting a lot of the bandwidth capability of this driver. The new crossover is going to be a two way unit crossed at 600hz at a very very steep initial slope. It will be interesting to hear how the almost total lack of overlap between the drivers will sound compared to a more traditional crossovers. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 I decided to spend some time today messing around with the ALK tap settings to see if I could get the sound closer to that of my La Scala center. I originally had the ALK taps set to 4-X, near the "normal" setting. I increased the attenuation and found that I was getting farther from the sound produced by the La Scala. I tried decreasing the attenuation, fearing I would make the mids too harsh, and found that the 4-0 setting is really close to the La Scala sound. Not only that, I found the 4-0 setting very pleasing for simple 2-ch music using the Belles only. Not bright at all. I'm sure my room acoustics makes my results different than anyone else's, but I was glad to have the flexibility the ALK's provide to change the attenuation easily. The ALK's and AL-3 are very close in sound and performance from what I can hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Q-man, You know that all you had to do to get around the fuse blowing is to put a huge fuse in there! Put in a 10A. I'd like to see you blow that and have the speaker survive! Tweeter protection could easily be added too. The lightbulb scheme or the Polyswitch could easily be added. I don't install them becuse they reduce the quality slightly and quality is what I'm alming for. It's true that the 400 and 6000 Hz crossovers are fixed. That's simply what it was intended to be, a drop-in replacement for the "AA". BTW, The design sfog mentioned is the first of a line of crossovers intended for use in 2-way OR 3-way systems. It will cross over at 600 Hz in a 2-way system with steep skirts and strap will allow for an external crossover to be added for 3-way operation. It will also be constand impedance withOUT the use of a Zobel by synthesizing the woofer voice coil inductance directly into the filter! I expect to eventually offer identical crossovers at 500Hz, 600Hz and 700 Hz. I may also make one with less steep skirts at 450Hz for use in the Khorn. The 600 Hz design is in the bench testing phase now and seems to be working ok. Tests in one of my Belles starts tomorrow. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 ---------------- On 11/12/2003 12:18:02 AM Q-Man wrote: I now coming to an end with my project and search for a better sounding midrange driver, horn, and tweeter. John's AA is now going to be replaced with a more custom designed network, because the Klipsch design doesn't work for my driver choices. ---------------- Q-Man... Would you please take a few minutes and recap your Klipschorn project for those of us who are trying to keep up? It seems as if you have discovered some significantly better horn/driver choices (tweeters too?) that are relatively easy to integrate with the K-horn bass bin. "sounds good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Rudy81, Glad to hear that you are experimenting the different tap settings. Less attentioun would have been my guess. Now maybe you won't feel the need to put an ALK in the LaScala. Give it some time, and get used to the change. Shawn, I'm going to use the Altec 290-16K and L series drivers with the Altec 311/90 horns. The 290 is a 300Hz driver and so is the horn. The tweeters are going to be the JBL 2404H models. The custom AA network won't let the 290/311 crossover below 550Hz and that is too high, The Klipschorn basshorn begins to drop off at 300Hz. The 290 doesn't need any attenuation but it will require about an 18 or 19uF mid cap to make the high pass filter 400Hz. I sent John Warren a driver and horn to test for me. Luckily he owed me a favor. He found the impedance high at 400hz, thus the added caps. He also found a nasty peak at 850Hz which will require a notch filter to flatten it out. The JBL tweeter will require a bit of attenuation. I'm experinenting with an L-Pad right now. The new network design is in the works thanks to Johns test equipment. I'm in good hands now. I'm a little concerned with your 600Hz crossover point. Doesn't the LaScala bass horn begin do drop off fast above 400Hz. It's been a while since I measured one, but I think that's what I found. AL, I was waiting for you to show up. I know that I could have worked with your networks if that was all that I wanted to do. I need a non Klipsch design now. If I had deep pockets I would have kept them and used them in some some of my other speakers. I needed to sell some of my shelved items to keep my project moving forward. I may even be selling more stuff yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Rob, I'll post a picture and a few more comments about the modified Klipschorns now that the new tops are finished. I was going to wait untill my center channel Klipschorn was done, but I'll add that later. The center channel Klipschorn will be above the TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 Q-Man: Yes, less attenuation was an almost perfect match for the La Scala. Al K confirmed the setting I came up with as the closest to the LaS. The only differance I note now is in the tweeter section. Needless to say, there are differcances in the balancing networks that may be causing that issue, or they may be something amiss with the tweeter. Once I get the other La Scala worked on, I'll try it and see how it fares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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