Q-Man Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 The tweeter on the Belle should sound a little cleaner making it even sound louder. The ALK does more to open up the tweeter then any other network. I don't think there is anything wrong with your LaScala tweeter. On the other hand, I have had a few problems with them. One thing that leads to trouble is where the female disconects hook up to the tweeters. See if the male disconects on the tweeter rotate, they should not move. Movement will eventually cause the very thin diaphragm wire to break or short out. I had a pair that would work fine in one position and nothing in the other. While in use they would go on and off do to the speaker vibrations. I now check all mine, if they move I super glue or epoxy them in place. This will save you from having to replace diaphragms in the furture. I also had tweeters about 2dB down because of oxidized monster cable and loose disconects because of the oxidation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Here a few pics of Q's midrange horn. The setup is measuring the impedance of the horn through a series cap and the autoformer. Here is a closeup of the driver itself. Very large and very heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 And of course, the "mouth" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 ---------------- On 11/12/2003 9:15:27 PM Q-Man wrote: The tweeter on the Belle should sound a little cleaner making it even sound louder. The ALK does more to open up the tweeter then any other network. I don't think there is anything wrong with your LaScala tweeter. On the other hand, I have had a few problems with them. One thing that leads to trouble is where the female disconects hook up to the tweeters. See if the male disconects on the tweeter rotate, they should not move. Movement will eventually cause the very thin diaphragm wire to break or short out. I had a pair that would work fine in one position and nothing in the other. While in use they would go on and off do to the speaker vibrations. I now check all mine, if they move I super glue or epoxy them in place. This will save you from having to replace diaphragms in the furture. I also had tweeters about 2dB down because of oxidized monster cable and loose disconects because of the oxidation. ---------------- Q-Man: That's IT!!!! I have not been able to adequately describe what I was hearing, but this is it precisely. The Belle tweeters sound cleaner and in my opinion are louder!!!! When I listened to both La Scalas by themselves, it is not very noticeable, although they sound more "constricted" in the high range than do my Belles. This gives the Belles a much more "airy" sound. It makes the soundstage seem larger and more enveloping. When I compare the La Scala with a Belle, the tweeter difference is VERY evident. I will check the items you mentioned, although I do not have any problems with intermittent operation or other anomaly. It was simply a different sound between the two, although they are identical tweeters. I will have to keep an eye out for a used ALK or just order another one from Al. Thanks for all your help. Your comments have helped me to properly set things up as much as I can. My thanks also to Al K, who has also helped immensely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 ---------------- On 11/12/2003 9:42:27 PM Rudy81 wrote: That's IT!!!! I have not been able to adequately describe what I was hearing, but this is it precisely. The Belle tweeters sound cleaner and in my opinion are louder!!!! When I listened to both La Scalas by themselves, it is not very noticeable, ---------------- Now Rudy, IF you want to REALLY hear a difference, one that will make your wife (or significant other) take notice get a pair of wire cutters, "snip" both the tweeter leads and forget that the T35 ever existed. Take the $550 you plan on spending on new netwroks and go out and get yourself a pair of JBL 2404H tweeters (www.usspeaker.com). When my wife heard these "any an all" resistance to subsequent "hi-end" purchases seemed to fade away. It was the best damned $550 I ever spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Rudy, There's another factor about the tweeters that I just remembered that my be the difference you hear. Sometime, along the way, Klipsch started mounting the tweeter on "Z brackets" which positions it flush with the front of the baffle. Earlier speakers had it mounted behind the baffle which makes it shoot through a 3/4 in tunnel. You can see the difference if you look through the grill cloth using a flashlight. You can see the differeence from the back of the speaker too. Q-Man, I understand how tinkerers operate. They have to keep changing things! I normally don't get into discussions where people discuss their reactions to my networks. I figure everybody is going to have their own reaction to them. The Belle woofer goes slowly down until it hits 700 Hz, then it takes a dive. I suspect the LaScala woofer will act the same way. I am crossing them at 700 and it works out quite nicely. A 600 Hz cross should be fine for the LaScala or Belle. It's way to high for the Khonr though. The stretch is if you are using the 811b horn, as I am. I plan to test that soon. It's only supposed to go down to 800 Hz but it seems to hang in there all the way down to 500! Al k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Q-Man, " Doesn't the LaScala bass horn begin do drop off fast above 400Hz. It's been a while since I measured one, but I think that's what I found." It is down a little above 400hz but doesn't really seem to take its nose dive till almost 1000hz. See the attached. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 Al: Thank you. I will look at the tweeters of the Belle and La Scala closely tomorrow and report back. The Belles are '88 vintage and the La Scalas are '93's. If in fact the Z brackets are an issue, can they be reversed or removed? In other works, can the tweeters all be made the same, short of buying new tweeters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 Al: Never mind, why wait until tomorrow when I can run up there and look. Once again you prove that you are a wealth of information. Here is what I found. The '88 Belles have the K77M mounted with black Z brackets that seem to put the tweeter flush with the OUTSIDE or exterior of the speaker cabinet. The '93 La Scala has the K77M mounted flush with the INSIDE of the cabinet, no Z bracket on that tweeter. Perhaps that 3/4' tunnel is making a noticeable and very audible difference. Any ideas or suggestions??? The La Scala tweeter opening on the cabinet is obviously not large enough to accept the entire tweeter housing, so I don't think I could add Z brackets to it without enlarging the opening. I would hate to take a saw to the speaker. I guess an option may be to replace the Belle Z bracket with a flat backet and in effect recess the tweeter flush with the back of the cabinet opening. However, I like the Belle tweeter sound so much more than the La Scala. The reason why I have been struggling to get as good a match as possible is that the La Scala serves as my center channel and the closer I can match the timbre to my Belles the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 ---------------- On 11/12/2003 9:52:28 PM John Warren wrote: Now Rudy, IF you want to REALLY hear a difference, one that will make your wife (or significant other) take notice get a pair of wire cutters, "snip" both the tweeter leads and forget that the T35 ever existed. Take the $550 you plan on spending on new netwroks and go out and get yourself a pair of JBL 2404H tweeters (www.usspeaker.com). When my wife heard these "any an all" resistance to subsequent "hi-end" purchases seemed to fade away. It was the best damned $550 I ever spent. ---------------- John: Great! Now you want me to modify my tweeters. Fortunately, I have a terrific wife. In the last year she has allowed me to get a pair of Hereseys, Forte II's, Chorus II's, La Scalas, a Sharp Z9000 projector, all my HALO gear, a pair of ALk's and the entire interior for OUR HT. Of course, I am now on the hook for the piano room furnishings. Just for the sake of argument....how would one mount those JBL tweeters in the Belles and La Scala without trashing the cabinets??? I have studied what AL K did with his Belles and might some day try to do something similar. However, in the world of modifying Klipsch speakers I'm still in kindergarten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 ---------------- On 11/2003 11:34:46 PM Rudy81 wrote: Just for the sake of argument....how would one mount those JBL tweeters in the Belles and La Scala without trashing the cabinets??? ---------------- You do not have to bother with mounting them internally. They can be mounted ontop. Xovers get you partly the way there but if the driver isn't up to the task it should be replaced. The T35 is not a much of a tweeter. It's a 60 y/o design that is a hold-over from the vacuum tube era. It distorts profusely at moderate volumes and hits a mass cutoff at 12kHz. Distortion is further aggrivated by the fact that the tweeters resonance frequency is within an octave of the cutoff. It defies my logic that many people will plunk down $3-4k for hi-end amps, $1-2k for fancy CD players and $500-600 for fancy crossovers only to listen to the whole system thru a pair of Atlas PA mids and tweeters that have a HF cutoff of 12kHz. Note too, in 1996 MCM Electronics was selling the T35 for $39 with a quantity discount of $35 for 4+ units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Rudy, The "Z bracket" mounting is the newer and better way to mount the T-35, but I agree with John. The T-35 is a very old design and built a cheaply as it could be made to be. Another good tweeter is the Beyma CP25. In fact it was John who turned me on to that tweeter. It is made in Spain and costs a lot less than the JBL. I am using them and have done response curves on them. Their dispersion is far better than the T-35 and it really does go all the way to 20 KHz. I have never seen a T-35 make it beyone about 15 KHz. The Beyma is larger than the T-35, so you will need to put it in a seperate box outside the speaker. Sfog, Man! The LaScale woofer looks better than the Belle woofer. I will be making curves on the Belle today. I'll post the woofer plot later for comparison. AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Rudy, Here's a side-by-side photo of the Beyma CP25 and a T-35 on the "Z brackets" Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 13, 2003 Author Share Posted November 13, 2003 Yes, that is the layout I have on the '88 Belles. The '93 La Scala does not sport the Z brackets and therefore is mounted on the inside of the baffle. I think I may be stuck with the current arrangement until I start truly customizing my speakers. The problem with hanging out in this forum is that the longer you hang out, the more expensive it gets! You sure learn a lot though! Thanks for all your help guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Rudy, "The problem with hanging out in this forum is that the longer you hang out, the more expensive it gets!" That should be the motto of the forum or used as a disclaimer each time we log on. Oh well, Easy go easy go. Or is it: Hi Ho, Hi Ho,so off to work, I owe. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Guys, As promised, here's the response of the Belle Klipsch woofer running alone. I think 700 Hz is as high as you would want to cross ot over. If Shawns plot on the LaScala is right, the LaScala woofer goes higher. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted November 13, 2003 Author Share Posted November 13, 2003 Al: I finally decided to put the questions in my mind to rest and do the only logical thing, put one of the ALK networks on a La Scala and do some comparissons. One La Scala got the ALK. One La Scala kept the AL-3. One Belle kept the other ALK. Results: The Belle and La Scala with the AL-3: noticeable differance in the tweeter section. The Belle (ALK) has a slightly louderand more "open" tweeter. The Belle and La Scala with the ALK: These two sounded identical. I had previously set the taps to 4-0 and they have stayed there. The squawkers sound very much the same. The tweeters sounded exactly the same. One La Scala with AL-3 vs. La Scala with ALK: Same differance in the tweeter section, the ALK slightly louder and more open. Of course, my unscientific tests can be biased since I knew which speaker had which network. The biggest and most obvious differance in the two networks turns out to be in the tweeter section. That is clearly audible. Conclusion: My '93 La Scala and '88 Belles with the same networks are extremely close to each other. The Z bracket differance does not seem to make much of an impact on music. There is a very notable differance in the tweeter section of the networks. The ALK's are more "open" and "airy" than the stock AL-3. The mid section is very close in both models with the ALK's set to 4-0. Seems I will just have to get a third ALK for my center channel La Scala. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Rudy, Didn't your mother ever teach you not to hang out in a gang? This Forum is bad news and will lead you down the evil path of which there is no return. I was perfectly happy with my pair of LaScalas untill I decided to get into home theater and found this Forum. But it has been fun. John is right about the JBL 2404H tweeter. This mod is one of those night and day ones. The half dozen or so people that I let listen while I A/B stuff like this tweeter. When we listened to an A/B with a stock Klipschorn and one with the 290/311 and 2404H the tweeter was the first thing they all commented on. Just like you are doing with the ALK network and K77. There is no end, it's like a curse. Just when you think you have it right you discover something elce and your starting over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Al, why 1.5 feet for the mike - was this measurement taken outside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Colin, The mike wound up that far from the speaker just by accident! I wanted to get it closer to help reduce room efects but far enough away so the sound from both mouths could combine. I'm not real sure where that point is though. I really just wanted to document where it was pisitioned for the day when I might actually know the significance of the placement! BTW, you can see a nice room resonance peek around 150 Hz. I normally kill that with an equalizer. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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