fire pinch Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Ahhhhhhh!!! Finally! I wanted to post more tomarrow, friday, because its late for me now, I must sleep but the devil told me to post a picture right now! You can maybe see some little little glitches, but they can be gone away whith a cloth. This is when I put the woofer in the enclosure that those little cosmetic glitches appeared (you can see some at the bottom). The picture now is presented as a file but Im gonna try to host it later tomarrow or during the week-end. More to come later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Wow that looks awesome. Great job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Sweet. All the parts finally meet in a pretty cabinet... and it really does have a "sunfire sub" look to it's compact enclosure. I think you deserve a cold beverage and some time to enjoy. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 Wow!!! I cant stop to be surprised by this subwoofer, especially by its very low distortion and clean bass. Compared to the Tempest, its like a new experience! How can I say this... hmm . Always compared to the Tempest, the Tumult produce more FELT energy, but at the same time, that bass is less perceived to the ears! For example, if you play a 30 Hz note, you will have to push farther (NOT THAT much) the Tumult to HEAR the same bass, but in fact, if you do that, you will just rattle more the walls and vibrate your pants! This is just to tell you how really low its distortion is... if the Tempest could sound louder to the ear, it is certainly because it produced a more distorted sound even if the Tempest woofer didnt sound sloppy or distorted. The Tempest sounds loud, when its excursion is at about 80% of its Xmax but you can hear noticable distortion. In the other side, the Tumult sounds loud, when its excursion is at 80% of its Xmax, but it sounds incredibly cleaner. I was one who was skeptical about the XBL technology, but now, Im a beleiver! Well, I concluded this by taking some measurements with each woofers and with my ears. I dont know if other Tumult users got the same conclusions than me but well... This difference is often more lived when the subs play loudly. At low volume, the difference is less perceived. Also, it is more noticable with deep bass notes, certainly because at those frequencies, the woofer excursions are higher. Here is a very short number list, showing some in room SPL (consistency). I understood today that I have a big room mode at 40 Hz too, not SOO big but it is still there. And it was there too with my Tempest, you could see that from 80 Hz then I started to gain some SPL at 56 Hz. This is definitively not an effect of the crossover. But something which is true, is how far the bass can extend in my room. At least, I have this luck! For the moment, I post the results under 31.5 Hz just to show you how far it extends. Im trying at the same time to correct that room mode without any EQ. I just tried to move the sub a bit more toward me and the output stayed the same in the mid-bass region but I lose some dBs around the room mode which is around 40 Hz. I may recall that I have a SEALED subwooefer, low to mid-Q design: 31.5Hz-->109.5 dB 28 Hz--->109 dB 25 Hz--->107 dB 22 Hz--->105 dB 20 Hz--->104.5 dB 18 Hz--->103 dB 16 Hz--->103.5 dB Thats about all for now... some pics will be added shortly and I have the idea to take a pics while the Tumult is moving a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted January 31, 2004 Author Share Posted January 31, 2004 Something new today, a picture of the Tumult in action! I wanted to host it so you can see it without clicking on the file but god damn, I lost all my softwares which permit me to do this!!! I have a quite buzy day , Im gonna try to post some objective datas before the night if I can. I begin to be like The_Ear on his Mega PC Speaker comparo topic! But well, people are not complaining too much as I can see, so why not posting more in one week? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 Very cool . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabulousfrankie Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 ---------------- On 1/31/2004 4:15:43 PM fire pinch wrote: Something new today, a picture of the Tumult in action! I wanted to host it so you can see it without clicking on the file but god damn, I lost all my softwares which permit me to do this!!! I have a quite buzy day , Im gonna try to post some objective datas before the night if I can. I begin to be like The_Ear on his Mega PC Speaker comparo topic! But well, people are not complaining too much as I can see, so why not posting more in one week? ---------------- LOL...Was the subwofer was vibrating your hand while taking the picture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted February 1, 2004 Author Share Posted February 1, 2004 ---------------- On 1/31/2004 10:09:22 PM fabulousfrankie wrote: ¸ LOL...Was the subwofer was vibrating your hand while taking the picture ? ---------------- HAHAHA!!! I know, the pic is kinda blurry and Im gonna take a new one today (Sunday, my time). Its quite true that the woofer pressurized a lot the air just beside and my hand was not so far LOL! But no... its most likely because I wasnt stable when I took the shot and I have to be death stable when I take one. Why? Because the shutter speed of the camera has to be low (1 sec or more) in order to take the woofer in motion. If the shutter speed is too high, you will see the plain woofer not moving at all. So just imagine that I have to stay very stable during 1 sec or more. In that case, the shutter speed was at 1.6 sec if my memory is correct. And if the shutter speed is too low, the picture will be too bright. Tomarrow, I hope to do a final TRUE test, where I will get the maximum SPL between 16 and 40 Hz, and also, a nice FR curve if I can get ride of that room mode around 40 Hz. But NO promises! I dont have a parametric EQ, but Im sure that by changing the crossover plus some bass settings, that I can reduce that room mode. For the moment, a little secret , one data got fastly recorded. During a song, when the subwoofer was not so far of its limit, I got a peak of 122 dB at one meter, during a deep note which I estimate to be a 40 Hz note. I dont think that I could get a 124 dB at one meter like Formica, that 124 dB Formica, that was at 40 Hz or under approximately??? Even if the Tumult is an impressive woofer, I cant hope more of it in a sealed box... By the way people, should I benchmark the sub at 1 meter during the max SPL test? Or should I do it at my listening position which is 3 meters away? The FR curve gotta be tested at the listening position, which is quite logical. This would be so cool too if I could grab the DVD of LOTR: the Two towers. My friend has all the collection, but I will not be able to get one of his Dvds before some days. But its not a problem I think, I can add the results later on this topic And this will make you just more tasty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 My quick SPL tests were done with a music source... so it is really a large mix of frequencies and I have no idea what the room modes look like at 1m from my sub I have ran tests with my old sub at my seating position... and my room response there was VERY wavy. Ironically i find my sub is not powerful enough... but my guess it's the room and not the sub. What it comes down to is the fact that it's really hard to compare in room measurements... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted February 1, 2004 Author Share Posted February 1, 2004 Maybe you find your sub not powerfull enough because you are too much used to the mid-bass boost (I just think that there is certainly one) of your Energy XL sub? Or your almost EBS alignment doesnt give you enough punch? Dont tell me that there is not so much difference in power between the AV-15 and your Energy. I'd be like LOL! Air leaks maybe??? Ive noticed a noticable improvment in power compared to before (about 2 dB maybe, by ear) when there was some air leaks around the woofer. Did you use another gasket than the one build-in the AV-15? "What it comes down to is the fact that it's really hard to compare in room measurements..." Still... our room are quite similary sized. But I know that we dont have the same room Our results might have some things in common if you know what I mean... Its not like if I had a 7500 Tom Nousaised cubic ft room! Are you sure that you got the very best placement for your sub? I thought so much that the AV-15 would impress you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 ---------------- On 2/1/2004 2:36:48 AM fire pinch wrote: Air leaks maybe??? Ive noticed a noticable improvment in power compared to before (about 2 dB maybe, by ear) when there was some air leaks around the woofer. Did you use another gasket than the one build-in the AV-15? ---------------- Hmmm... I did notice some air leaking out the front of my sub... OH.... must be that large flared 6" hole in the front!!! LOL... even though it's less critical than with a sealed sub (less air pressure) it actually is pretty air tight as I hear no air or vent noise except when I push it to clipping with 16Hz to 18Hz tones (it's just a touch, which isn't audible unless it's a pure tone). Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to play with it this weekend, but I honestly suspect a room mode due to either "an inversing of the phase" or the slightly modified position of the sub. Unfortunately I'm very limited in placement... it may not be ideal, but the other choices seem worse. I'm sure you can understand that, unless you got rid of your bed? Apart from running the standard RS SPL meter tests, I've been wanting to give a Real Time Analyser (RTA) program a try. I think the Energy was capable of a pretty flat rolled off response BUT I know I used to have a room peak around 40Hz... while my quick test the other night with the AV15 showed I had the opposite with a null in about the same region. I didn't want to draw any conclusions yet... because I did my tests in a very unscientific way... On a different subject... I don't know if your PLX is like my amp, but when I push it hard the fan will rev up given that it's a continuously variable fan... but then continues audibly a few seconds after the music stops to cool the amp back down. I rather not hear the fan at all so I'm considering changing it (it's very easy) with one of the recommended Panaflo "L" units rather that the original Panaflo "H" unit. Let me know if you'd like one, as it's more economical when you get at least 3 units. Later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 When do we get to see more photos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted February 5, 2004 Author Share Posted February 5, 2004 Really soon, Im doing the FR curve test now!! (damn I said the secret) The low and high pass crossover is at 50 Hz this time. Ive found that I have the very same problems than Formica, but at a lower scale, and quite much. And Formica, if you read this post, I think that I know a solution for our valley at around 70 Hz. When I played the test tones, at each frequency, I moved a bit at the left and at the right of my seating position. I found that at higher frequencies, I can get more or lower SPL when I walk just beside my listening position and this is really the case at 70 Hz. For lower frequencies, even if I walk beside, there is not so much difference, as low as 1 dB most of the time!!! And I know that my towers are not centered very well. The left tower is more in front of me than the right one. So I thought about two things: 1- Changing to crossover to a higher point, I even think about 120 Hz (low pass AND high pass too) so the none-centered bass of my towers wont have any effect anymore. 2- Recentering the volume of my front towers. So the valley may change of location. Im gonna try this and if you find that its a good idea, try this as well! For the moment, I have a very nice curve under 36 Hz, the bass goes down while loosing power very softly and evenly until 16 Hz. (Very soft roll-off). My very last low frequency FR curve test showed this: -High/Low pass @ 50 Hz -At listening position (3 meters away) -C Weighting slow, with corrected measurments 31.5 Hz 93 dB 28 Hz 92 dB 25 Hz 91 dB 22 Hz 88.5 dB 20 Hz 87.5 dB 18 Hz 87.0 dB 16 Hz 86.5 dB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted February 5, 2004 Author Share Posted February 5, 2004 Ive done my FR curve test, and I cant correct for now my peak and valley. However, I succeded to reduce them by playing with the crossovers. Last time, my low pass was at 50 Hz but I forgot to change my high pass which was at 80 Hz! The best results now are with both the low and high pass at 50 Hz. And I have something in which you will say NO SENSE AT ALL! IMPOSSIBLE! LOOK LOOK!! -Sealed Tumult powered by a 2400W amp, low to mid-Q design (in case some doesnt know yet) -Measurments taken at the listening position, 3 meters away in a 1500 cubic ft room -Low and high pass crossover at 50 Hz -Results correct by the Radio Shack SPL compensation chart -C Weighted, slow response -Any other usefull info that you may want to know? 125 Hz 94.5 dB 111 Hz 97.5 dB 100 Hz 93.5 dB 89 Hz 91 dB 80 Hz 86 dB 71 Hz 88 dB 63 Hz 93 dB 56 Hz 97.5 dB 50 Hz 101 dB 45 Hz 106 dB 40 Hz 105.5 dB 36 Hz 102.5 dB 31.5 Hz 99 dB 28 Hz 98 db 25 Hz 95.5 dB 22 Hz 94 dB 20 Hz 93.5 dB 18 Hz 93 dB 16 Hz 92.5 dB 12 Hz!!! 91.5 dB!!! (I may recall that those measurements dont show the max SPL of the subwoofer, this is an FR cruve test) YES!!! You really did see a 12 Hz somewhere!!! I got SO much surprised to see the number 75 on the SPL meter!! The SPL compensation chart says to add 16.5Hz at this frequency so this gives an unbeleivable 91.5 dB at 12 Hz! If this is the only big advantage that I can have of my sealed Tumult, then Im gonna be very happy! And also, as you can see, I have the same room mode than Formica and the same room depression althought they seem to be less pronounced. I guess that our room are nearly identicaly shaped Formica? I dont know if Im gonna be able to do the MAX SPL test before the night... but Im gonna come back tomarrow with another post, this is a promise! Max SPL at 12 Hz?? P.S.: If you dont beleive that 12 Hz result, I can take a picture where we'll be able to see the test tone frequency on the computer + what we can read on the SPL meter, on the same picture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Pincette a mouches, "P.S.: If you dont beleive that 12 Hz result, I can take a picture where we'll be able to see the test tone frequency on the computer + what we can read on the SPL meter, on the same picture..." I am skeptic you used Photoshop as even a child you fake a pic like this. I am skeptic you even own a Tumult,as even a child could ...wait...nevermind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 ---------------- On 2/5/2004 9:31:45 PM fire pinch wrote: And also, as you can see, I have the same room mode than Formica and the same room depression althought they seem to be less pronounced. I guess that our room are nearly identicaly shaped Formica? ---------------- We do have almost the same volume and perhaps we share a dimension or two... but my room contains many large notches (the room steps in) so it is neither square nor rectangular. I didn't think of testing my sub all the way down to 12hz when I burnt my test CD (my PC is too far) Your roll-off is nice and slow... and still packs quite a punch at 12hz. What's this about peak and nodes being more pronounced? I'm looking at 8db difference between 20hz and 40hz while you've got 12db. It's very hard to compared sealed and ported, as your looking at driver roll-off at one end and x-over roll-off at the other... but this was a race / competition ... Looking foward to seeing some max values... but don't burn that driver out... k! Later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 ---------------- On 2/6/2004 12:50:54 AM formica wrote: What's this about peak and nodes being more pronounced? I'm looking at 8db difference between 20hz and 40hz while you've got 12db. It's very hard to compared sealed and ported, as your looking at driver roll-off at one end and x-over roll-off at the other... but this was a race / competition ... ---------------- Yeah you are right about my peak! But we should considere that the room has an effect only between 31.5 to 50 Hz, so it is now more like yours, about 7dB. Under 31.5 Hz, IMHO, this is more about the soft roll off of the subwoofer. However, the depression I have in my curve, now there is a quite big difference. When you take a look at my numbers, we could say that my reference point is around 94 dB. I have only one depression and it is a 8 dB depression. If we look at your graph, you have two main depressions! Oh well... I hope that we are gonna find a solution to our room curve. Without an EQ, Im guessing that this gonna be hard . I have still a big hope without an EQ, just because my ceiling is made with accoustical tiles! Maybe some other sub placements can correct more my room SPL curve. But I know that If I place my sub elsewhere, Im gonna loose some SPL because I found that the really best spot of it is really on the left room corner. Just beside me too, this is a good location but I loose power down low. Oh! And I did some fast MAX SPL tests yesterday, and you absolutely crush me down. That was kinda expected At 20 Hz, I cant touch more than 111 dB. This gives me the evil idea to make another vented enclosure for the Tumult! But I didnt test at 12 Hz LOL!! But Im very sure that without that piece of furniture, and if I would place the sub directly on the ground, I would gain about 2 dB. Still not a big deal again... I have a VERY HARD room for SPL. My ceiling and the floor dont reflect the waves very well. First, my ceiling is an absorbant material (accoustic tiles LOL). Second, the floor of my bedroom is also the ceiling of the kitchen downstairs. That floor isnt perfectly sealed, it is made with pine boards. During the winter, because the air is more dry in the room, the wooden floor tends to "react". Im sure you understand what I mean! This would be interesting if you could test your sub at 12 Hz, just by curiosity, to know how it would react beeing a vented sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 A new pic today! Well, this is a corrected picture of the Tumult excursion. The one already posted is kinda blurry In that one, you really see the woofer surround going out of the enclosure!!! This was done during a 16Hz note! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 Others pics... there is one in there that is not so related with the sub but its just to show you our winter time in Quebec! It is snowing right now, at this moment. The two first pics show my PLX amp, the third one, the pair of gold plated binding posts on the back of the sub with 12 GA wires. The 4th one is how the sub looks like when the camera is sit on my Tempest which is about 3 meters away and hahah, the 4th one, well, this is picture I took randomly of outside. You can see my left neigbhoor garage! lol! If you want other pics of the subwoofer or the amp or something else (I dont know... my room cuz we only see a part of it now), tell me. Formica, this would be cool if you could post a pic of your room so we could see where your sub is located May I add too that all the pics that Ive taken since the begining are all in my website at : http://pages.infinit.net/remy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Cool pictures man. Did you take them with a digital camera? That amp is huge, and nice too. Did you build your own box from scratch? Or did you get it as a kit and put it together? Anyways, nice pics.That cd on your website inside the sub cone is sweet, that sub is a monster. Thanks for lettin us take a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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