klipschster Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 About the only thing I can notice immediately is that the exponential horn seems more focused while the tractrix is wider and more open. What's the advantage to tractrix horns? I say advantage because Klipsch uses tractrix horns on it's newer products and has left the exponential horns soley for the limited in number heritage line. If I were to hook my midrange driver on my Heresy II (k-53k) to the 90x40 degree tractrix horn from, say, the Forte II (or the 90x60 degree one from the KLF-30), would it change the sound dramatically and if so, how? If tractrix is "better," why not use them on the heritage line and if you did, what you still get a "heritage" sound or would you have a new animal altogether? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 AUDIO magazine had an interesting article on tractrix horns a few years ago. I'll see if I can find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipschster Posted June 12, 2004 Author Share Posted June 12, 2004 Thank you, JDM, I'd really like to read it! KLIPSCHSTER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatbass Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 The exponential is better IMO. Just listen to the speakers with the exponential horn, the klipschorn and lascala. Then listen to the reference series, pick which one sounds best to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantfmly Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 i like the tratrix horn i my klf-20' better then i like the exponetial horn in my heresy II's. The sound is smooth in the heresy's but is is a little to naszally (for lack of better expression) for my tastes especially with rock. just my opinion though. I am sure their are more out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 It's damned near impossible to rate a horn on it's flare type without also taking into consideration it's dispersion pattern which, in my experience and opinion has even more to do with the horn's sound than what type of flare it uses. Anyway the modern resurgence of the tractrix flare horn (invented in the 1930s by Voight, the Lowther guy) was caused by Southern California horn guru Dr.Bruce Edgar. He got putzing around with tractrix horns about 15 years ago while seeking to improve the sound of Altec VOTs. Bruce wrote articles on tractrix horns for SpeakerBuilder magazine and went into business making horns and complete systems. Bruce holds that the tractrix horns provides a better "launch" of the wave from the mouth of the horn, with less reflections back down the horn than with other types of flares. Bruce and his followers hold that this gives tractrix horns a more natural sound and better imaging. Note that the Klipsch use of the tractrix horn was insprired by Bruce's articles and reputation. I owned Bruce's round "saladbowl" tractrix horns and a pal owns a fullbore Edgar "Titan" 4-way fully horn-loaded system. And I'm here to tell ya the good doctor knows his business, the stuff he makes sounds really, REALLY good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 phatbass---There are SO many other differences between Heritage and RF speakers that to credit the difference in sound merely to the type of horn flare used is not reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/edgarinterview.htm Read this; a comprehensive interview with Bruce Edgar in which he explains at length the advantages of the tractrix flare. In the photo he holds one of his famous "saladbowls". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Klipschster----Only you can tell if you'd like the sound of the tractrix horn with your Hereseys. Give it a try. Several years ago I substituted tractrix horns from Klipsch Pro for the stock mid horns on the Cornwalls I then owned. It was a success but it might have just been that one is inclined to think that any mod one makes is a success. The photo attached is one of the modified Cornwalls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number 9 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 TBrennan ...why didn't you just get a pair of Chorus' if you preferred the Tractrix horn? I used to own a pair of Cornwalls too. I'm curious, did the Tractrix tame a bit of the agressive midrange you tend to get with the CWs? I met Dr. Edgar last year and heard his Titan speakers with monster-sized subwoofer. Very smooth ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 #9----The Cornwalls were at hand. Yeah, I think the speakers were less agressive in the mids with the tractrix. But that might be because the dispersion pattern was different rather than their "tractixness", I dunno. My best friend now owns them and uses them as monitors in his home studio, he's very happy with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipschster Posted June 13, 2004 Author Share Posted June 13, 2004 Great pic of your modified Cornwall, TBrennan; I don't think I have the guts to modify my Heresy cabinets to try and accept a tractrix horn because if I don't like them, I'm stuck with altered cabinets and with money being kind of tight now, it's a deep concern. BEsides, the Heresy cabinet is so small I doubt an exponential horn will fit. There's basoically no room at all, vertically speaking, to install a midrange horn with different dimensions (vertically increased that is) then the exponential one that's already there. The cornwal cabinet's an altogether different story - there's lots of room there to fool around. I heard some of you mention Dr. Edgar and I read the link and did a quick google search on him. Seems like a horn guru alright. Haven't found much on his top of the line Titan 4 system, but Tbrennan, you said you heard it and it sounds good. As good as a pair of Khorns? Can they compete with the legendary Khorns? I see they're priced the same at $7500 a pair, so he must've had the Khorns in target when he priced them. Anybody have any thoughts on the differences between the Khorns and the Titan 4? If you had $7500, what would you buy? This could make for an interesting topic. Maybe I should start one and see how much data we can amass. KLIPSCHSTER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Edgar's demonstration showing the difference between the exponential and tractrix horns. Something tells me this isn't the whole story. I think someone needs to glue that horn to his mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipschster Posted June 13, 2004 Author Share Posted June 13, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 The guy annoys me for some reason. Oh yeah, Klipsch went to tractrix because of the genius of Bruce Edgar. Gee, I don't know, maybe Klipsch went with tractrix horns because the wave expands in the horn faster, and so the horns are smaller. This allows you to build speakers with smaller footprints. Gee, ya think, maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klipschster Posted June 14, 2004 Author Share Posted June 14, 2004 Once again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 That's right AK, Klipsch did go to tractrix because of Bruce Edgar. His articles on the tractrix are what inspired the fellas at Klipsch, they've said as much themselves. I reckon we can take the Klipsch designers at face value. Note that the tractrix flare was pretty much ignored between Voight and Edgar. Ever see a horn speaker between the Voights and the Edgars that was tractrix, hmmm? Ever seen a tractrix JBL, Altec, Community, Tannoy, Jensen, University, EV, Klipsch or whatever from that time? Hmmm? Oh, no doubt ole PWK was aware of tractrix, for one thing he had quite a collection of Voight tractrix horns in his little museum. But he never did anything commercial with the flare until Edgar's influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 ---------------- On 6/14/2004 4:54:24 AM TBrennan wrote: That's right AK, Klipsch did go to tractrix because of Bruce Edgar. His articles on the tractrix are what inspired the fellas at Klipsch, they've said as much themselves. I reckon we can take the Klipsch designers at face value. Note that the tractrix flare was pretty much ignored between Voight and Edgar. Ever see a horn speaker between the Voights and the Edgars that was tractrix, hmmm? Ever seen a tractrix JBL, Altec, Community, Tannoy, Jensen, University, EV, Klipsch or whatever from that time? Hmmm? Oh, no doubt ole PWK was aware of tractrix, for one thing he had quite a collection of Voight tractrix horns in his little museum. But he never did anything commercial with the flare until Edgar's influence.---------------- I have never heard anyone at Klipsch bring up his name before in relation to tractrix. Maybe one of the moderators, or perhaps Jim Hunter can jump in here and clear this up. You guys have me really curious about this now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 Tom, IMHO it seems more like a parallel developement of the Tractix flair between Klipsch and Edgar. Klipsch introduced the ChorusII with a Tractix Horn in 1989. Figuring a 2 year lead time between conception and introduction that would be 1987 about the same time Dr Edgar began his pursuits. I'm sure that Klipsch engineers used his papers in the furtherance of the technology as I am sure that Dr Edgar used PWK's papers in his investigations. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablum Posted June 14, 2004 Share Posted June 14, 2004 What came first, the chicken or the egg? For sure Webster was one of the first to come up with a general mathematical expression for the propagation of waves in a flared horn (I think he came up with this around 1919). http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~dpberner/icmc94/node2.html Doesn't every horn designer (Voigt, Klipsch, Edgar, LeCleach, etc.) owe him something? LeCleach developed a numerical model based on Webster's equation using a distinct element methodology. An Excel spreadsheet might be found here. http://perso.club-internet.fr/ndaviden/pavillon/lecleach.htm#ancre68820 Bruce Edgar seems to be a very nice guy by the way. I don't see why all the animosity here. We have enough of this PP vs SET or tube vs SS or Heritage vs Type X around here. I don't think we need a "who's the real horn genius" contest, too. That is what is so painful about company forums. This "Klipsch or DIE" mentality is short sighted and myopic. AK4, can I join your club? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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