TommyC Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hi guys. Once I decide on a CD Player, my system will be complete for now. (I Have to finish remodeling the house or my wife Will kill me!) Now I need to do some serious thinking about room treatment. Unfortunately, I know Absolutely Nothing about this subject except that my dad believes it is at Least as important as what gear goes In the room! I don't have the luxury of designing a room around my system like he did so I have to work with the only room that I have available to me. My room is 10' X 15' X 7.5' High. It has sloping sections for the last 1.5' on each end of the ceiling that makes the end (10') walls only 6.5' high due to the steep roof. In the middle of one 15' wall is the door and next to it is a set of bifold doors for the closet. Centered on the opposite 15' wall is a double window. The room is currently carpeted but will soon be wood floors. The walls are painted sheetrock. There is a, soon to be gone, ceiling fan in the middle of the ceiling. Did that make any sense? Any suggestions on where to start would be greatly appreciated. My system is listed in my sig and in my profile. As always, Thanks for putting up with us Newbies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 ---------------- On 6/15/2004 12:54:33 AM TommyC wrote: I know Absolutely Nothing about this subject except that my dad believes it is at Least as important as what gear goes In the room! ---------------- Your father is a wise man... and he is correct. I think it'll be easiest if you first try the equipment in the room and see what needs tweaking. Will you have a TV in the same room? Obviously given the size of your room and the fact that both long walls have opening/windows in the middle of them, you have to first fit the equipment and furniture in the room. From your description and esp if you have a TV, you'll have to place the equipment on the short wall. I noticed you don't have a subwoofer... and given the Heresys bass roll off... you may want to try placing them in the corners. Don't be afraid to experiment with their placement. Once you have things settled in... one of the most noticeable room treatments would be corner bass traps. You can check out the link michael hurd posted in free acoustical consulting ! thread. Later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Test CD and SPL meter to see where the bumps and dips are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Contact "arto" on this forum he can definately set you straight on this topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 ---------------- On 6/15/2004 11:50:54 AM Colin wrote: Test CD and SPL meter to see where the bumps and dips are... ---------------- A test CD & SPL meter will be of little use in a room that size. There are just too many near term reflections and standing wave problems in smaller spaces that will change very quickly with the slightest turn of the head, change in elevation level or lateral listening position. As Rob mentioned, probably the first 'acoustic thing' to go for is corner bass traps. The other thing is identity near term reflection points on the walls & ceiling with a mirror. Have someone hold a small mirror flat against the walls & ceiling surfaces while you sit where you normally listen. Anywhere you can see the speakers reflection in the mirror is a candidate for some sound absorption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 oh, is it too big for a clap test too! objective measurement is the only way we are going to know where the bumps and the dips are, unless a bare room model is projected by a software program... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 25, 2004 Share Posted June 25, 2004 ---------------- On 6/23/2004 5:50:41 PM Colin wrote: oh, is it too big for a clap test too! objective measurement is the only way we are going to know where the bumps and the dips are, unless a bare room model is projected by a software program... ---------------- And I'm telling you that if you have ever done any serious room measurements with a test LP/CD/tape/audio sound generator using the proper test signals for the type of measurements being performed you would know how useless this can be when 2 of the 3 room dimensions gets down to 10' or less. I can tell you without even measuring it that it will in fact have many substantial peaks & dips through out the bass region and probably into the lower midrange. The only way to acoustically treat this is to use bass trapping to absorb the peaks where they build up most (at multiple room boundary intersections) so that these peaks don't cause cancellations at other locations. And no, it's not "too big for a clap test", it's "too small", to reveal anything significant, especially after he gets some equipment & furniture in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doudou Posted June 25, 2004 Share Posted June 25, 2004 you should take a look there: http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=131 you may not need room treatment, may be it could sound better with replacing your speakers. with this exel sheat you ll be able to find where gaps are.so you should avid to place a speaker or a sub there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 25, 2004 Share Posted June 25, 2004 No offense Dou but I've posted plenty on room modes before. And Floyd Toole is a very reputable acoustition. The main problem with a mode calculator for this room is that this it is not a "simple" shape. Most mode calculators predict axial standing waves only in rooms with simple planes. This room has sloped ceilings on two sides. While this complicates the calculations and requires a more sophisticated software such as CARA (http://www.rhintek.com/cara/cara21desc.php) to get an accurate picture, it also helps break up mode distribution (create more modes) in the room. I have yet to see a room that can't be improved by acoustical treatment. But one must also consider that conventional objects in the room such as furniture, A/V equipment, window treatments, etc. also contribute to the acoustical response. In a room this size with two channel stereo it boils down to speaker placement relative to the listening position, and near term reflections off the room surfaces which why I suggested starting with the mirror technique to determine the most obvious near term reflection points for absorption and progressing to corner bass trapping. In a room this size there is only so much that bass trapping will do before the size of the traps becomes somewhat impractical. Room modes are only part of the equation and primarily affect the lower frequencies. Other things such as reverberation time, diffusion, impulse response, near term reflections, etc. are just as important. For the most part, the smaller and more disproportional the dimensions of the space get, the more difficult these things are to control. Also, the mode calculator you suggested has nothing to do with determining speaker placement. Nor does Dr. Toole make any statement to that effect. It is simply for determining axial room modes (or standing waves) which will affect the smoothness of frequency response regardless of the type of speaker used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doudou Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 sorry artto, i didn t know your room hasn t a simple square shape(i must say i hadn t totaly read the topic).and i m not very old on the forum so i havn t see all your post. by talking about the mode, i just wanted to put a stress on the fact that before wasting money in room treatment, placing his gear in a good place could be more simple. i agree with you, if your room include a sloped ceiling or stuff like that, it s more complicated to calulate the mode. by the way you talk, i see you have tested many way to improve your room and eventually it seems that room treatment is your last chance. the mirror technic you talk about is in my opinion the simpliest to improve your room because it s the quickest way to find the place where absorber should be placed. don t forget to let us know about the improvement you make.and good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 Dou, my room is, for all practical purposes, a simple square shape (rectangular), although the rear wall is offset and has a slight angle in it where the entry door is. I would like to stress that putting money into acoustical room treatment is hardly a waste of money, regardless of how you set up your equipment. And that even though setting up your equipment properly may be initially simpler, and easier to understand, and certainly is a requirement for achieving good sound, ultimately, you need to start with the room itself, its size, proportions and design first, if your goal is to achieve the best sound possible. There is no kind or amount of acoustical treatment, or proper placement your equipment, that will be able to make up for this. Please dont confuse room modes with how speakers interact with those modes. If a room does not have good mode distribution in the first place, speaker placement can only attempt to minimize the effects of the room modes on the speakers output relative to a particular listening position (or area). This is at best, a substantial compromise, if you are after the ultimate in performance. For the best possible performance, its best to get it (the room itself) right in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted July 11, 2004 Share Posted July 11, 2004 That's exactly what I'm trying to accomplish. We have the cement poured in the downstairs, yesterday afternoon I laid out several 2x4 to get a rough feel for the size of both the listening room and the shop. It looks like it's going to end up 20x17x8. Artto, do you have any "fancier" room mode calculators that would give me any more information than the ModeCalc one from the RealTraps site? I'd prefer it do be bigger, hard to get a real feel for the room when you're just imagining the walls being there, so it may not be a bad size afterall. Here's a link to the drawing, but I've taken out a couple of feet from the shop to extend the length of the listening room, which is actually marked Storage. http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/sample.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doudou Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 i agree with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 This the mode calculator I've been using for some time now. It shows a lot more information than the Real Traps one. You can see how many modes there are, resonant room frequency, what dimension the mode frequencies occur, the mode distribution, etc. It runs on Excel. It will probably take most people a while to figure out what all of this means, but this is one of the 'simpler' ones that doesn't leave a lot information out just for the sake of simplicity. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/modes1.xls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted July 12, 2004 Share Posted July 12, 2004 Thanks artto, sounds interesting, but I don't have Excel on any of my puters. I was hoping to find a downloadable trial version, but they want me to order a disc which would take who knows how long to get here. Thanks for the link though, some interesting reading there, and he seems to have the math to back up a lot of his claims. I need to so some more poking around in it, a lot of info, don't think I've scratched the surface yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 ---------------- On 7/12/2004 6:33:38 PM Champagne taste beer budget wrote: I don't have Excel on any of my puters. I was hoping to find a downloadable trial version, but they want me to order a disc which would take who knows how long to get here. ---------------- Seriously?? Not even Lotus? The OEM Lotus Suite sell for about 25$cnd with a piece of hardware (I'm talking legal version)... but you may look into OpenOffice.org 1.1 or even 602PC Suite 4.0 for freeware which will edit excel spreadsheets. I live by Excel... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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