RF-7 system vs THX Ultra II a listening evaluation

[htxpert]

Hi All

Here are a few observations from an Installers viewpoint on the Klipsch THX Ultra II vs Klipsch

RF-7 Based system (RF-7 RC-7 RF-35 surrounds and RB-15 Ex channels) I have both in my showroom now and have been listening to them for the last couple of days .

Let me start by saying that the Klipsch THX Ultra II system is clearly superior to the RF-7 based system for 5.1 and 7.1 movie sound tracks. Its not even a close comparison! The system is absolutely seamless. Dialogue from the center channel is clear and distinct, hard pans from left to right ,right to left and front to rear are uncannily smooth and effortless. This system excels in its sheer unrestrained dynamic capabilities.

Flyovers from action sound tracks like X2 on the DTS demo disk 8 sound incredible. Foley effects were equally impressive. The THX Ultra II system really brought the soundtracks to life. Information that was present and audible on the THX Ultra II system were sometimes buried or inaudible on the RF-7 based system.

The new Klipsch THX Ultra subwoofers are the best subwoofers Klipsch has produced. To say they will play low and clean is an understatement. The RF-7 system sounds very good; I have always liked this system and have installed many systems in many different configurations. It will play loud and clean and excels in dynamics. This was one of my favorite systems until I heard the THX Ultra II system. I had a pre conceived notion that the RF-7 system would hold up very well against the THX Ultra II system because they are larger speakers with very large cone surface areas. Boy was I wrong. Mind you the RF-7 system sounds very good. In Fact it sounds fantastic until you put it side by side with the THX Ultra II system.

Music

Simply put the RF-7 was the clear winner here for 2 channel. The THX Ultra II sounded good but the RF-7 sounded much more robust and a lot fuller. The THX Ultra II system was much dryer than the RF-7. The easiest way to describe the difference was the notes played on the THX Ultra II system seemed to decay much faster that resulted in a much shallower sound stage.

The dispersion characteristic's of the THX Ultra II system and the cross over points probably contributed

to this as well

DVD-A/SACD

The RF-7 system was a little better here also, although it was much closer than with 2 channel.

Both systems sounded very good with a slight edge going to the RF-7 system. Again it sounded much fuller.

This was most likely due to using the larger speaker in the front and full range rear surrounds in the rear

This is how I would advise a client who is trying to choose between the two :

If you are a hard core movie junkie the THX Ultra II system is a no brainer.

If you are going to use your system 60% or more of the time for Home Theater go for the THX system.

If you are a 50% movie 50% music it is a tough call.

If you listen to more 2 channel and multi-channel DVD-A/SACD, I would lean toward the RF-7 system.

I am not trying to imply that being an Installer, somehow gives me golden ears. Far from it!

Many years in Pro audio and consumer audio may have taken their toll on these old ears,

but I can still hear and IMOHO the new Ultra II system ROCKS!!!

Questions ? Comments?

[m00n]

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On 8/23/2004 9:51:02 PM htxpert wrote:

The system is absolutely seamless. Dialogue from the center channel is clear and distinct, hard pans from left to right ,right to left and front to rear are uncannily smooth and effortless.

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Interesting. I'm hoping that the fact that I have RF7 center, RC7s all the way around the sides and rear help give me an advantage over the standard R7 setup.

[JewishAMerPrince]

How would you rate the two once you factor in the cost difference, including the cost of a robust sub for the 7 series system.

Thanks

Jerry Rappaport

[crazyrobo]

Question: Exactly how much is an Ultra THX II system anyway? At least compared to a Main RF-7 system? I've only heard the RF-7s in person, I've never actually seen that product line before.

[htxpert]

Hi I think if you make cost a factor the RF-7 system is a good value I would choose the THX Ultra subwoofers over the RSW 15 The THX Ultra subs never loose there composure Tight,Fast and Powerful are a few words that come to mind The THX Ultra II system retails for about $10,700 for the L/C/R Dipole surrounds

EX speakers, 2 Ultra Subs and a 1000 watt Amp

I have both set up in my showroom

RF-7,RC-7,RF-35,RB-15

(I have tried the RF-7,RC-7 with RS-7 WDST rear surrounds and have installed a complete 7 channel RC-7 system)and most all other combo's including Heritage

and Klipsch Pro Cinema in commercial applications

The Klipsch Ultra II system has no competition in the Home Theater environment (for movie sound tracks)at this time

If you are a Videophile you must listen to these

Or if you are trying to complete a system look at the

various components in the system

If you are an Audiophile then these are not for you

Heritage would be the ones to hear

Questions,Comments?

[Darren]

Ray -

Thanks for the great summary. I've wondered if anyone has done the side-by-side comparison, and you've certainly done that.

[JewishAMerPrince]

Ray

Once again, thanks for your review and comments on value. I have yet to see or listen to the THX system but it just seems to me that it lacks one of the things that has always drawn me to Klipsch, ie: bang for the buck. It may have the ultimate bang, but unfortunatly most of us DON'T own our own audio salons and therefore have the luxury of having whatever we want at our disposal. We have to deal with things like WAF, college tuition, etc. With discounts from autorized dealers my 7 series 7.1 setup cost me just north of 5K and that includes an SVS PB2+.

Nothing is to be construed to take anything away from the THX system, just at 10K for the entire setup it BETTER sound unreal by comparison to the 7 series.

I'm curious to what electronics you drove each system with. Was that apples to apples? I'm asking that because in my experience, most audio salons tend to assemble "systems", with lower grade speakers being demonstrated by lower grade electronics in order to attempt to keep a balanced price point. The characteristics you attribute to system steering, the seemless sound, pans, center dialog, etc are all more usually influenced by the Surround processor than they are the speakers. I know that when I upgraded electronics on my 7 series, that things that were "buried and inaudible" all of a sudden sprang forth from my 7 series.

Jerry Rappaport

[PhilMays]

Ray,

Very nice review and one I was interested in. I have the RF-7 setup and music is far more important to me than movie quality in sound.

Can one get the subs seperate of the system? My local retailer said you could not.

Phil

[m00n]

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On 8/24/2004 12:28:47 AM htxpert wrote:

The THX Ultra II system retails for about $10,700 for the L/C/R Dipole surrounds EX speakers, 2 Ultra Subs and a 1000 watt Amp

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Ouch! Don't see me getting rid of my R7s any time soon. As long as they still amaize me, which they do, I'm good to go.

[htxpert]

(QUOTE)

Can one get the subs separate of the system? My local retailer said you could not.

It is my understanding that you can purchase the Subs separate

You guys are putting me in a difficult position and I may get my behind slapped for this one but here goes

If you have a good working relationship with your Klipsch dealer/Custom Installer and can smooth talk a little the THX ULTRA II system is closer in price than you may think to a complete RF-7 system

(RF-7,RC-7,RS-7,RB-35 ex,(2) RSW12 Subs)

I will not elaborate on this subject on the forum

(QUOTE)

unfortunatly most of us DON'T own our own audio salons and therefore have the luxury of having whatever we want at our disposal.

I hope I have not given the impression that I own a Salon, I don't. I am a Custom Installer with a small private showroom nothing fancy just a good environment for my clients to listen to audio and see a front projection system in action I have a child and a wife so I am well aware of the balancing act most of us must endure day to day month to month and year to year

WAF

It has been my experience that smaller objects in the home have more of an appeal for women than larger ones

(We are talking speakers) The THX Ultra II system is more compact than the RF-7 based system However it is only available in Galaxy Black finish My advice is to get the official nod before proceeding she may like the size of the THX Ultra II or she may say no on the finish If you are installing in custom entertainment center then the THX Ultra II system is a no brainer

Questions? Comments?

[jdm56]

Thanks Ray! This is something I find really interesting here: Actual comparisons between specific products, by people who know what they are talking about. Most of us, including myself, just don't have the opportunity to do extensive comparisons, particularly of multi-channel systems.

Just out of curiosity, what heritage systems have you installed/heard, and how would they compare to the THX and the RF7 based rigs? And how about an all RC7 set-up? Seems to me that might approach the speed and clarity of the THX, while retaining the musicality of an RF7 system.

[JewishAMerPrince]

(QUOTE)

WAF

It has been my experience that smaller objects in the home have more of an appeal for women than larger ones

(We are talking speakers) The THX Ultra II system is more compact than the RF-7 based system However it is only available in Galaxy Black finish (UNQUOTE)

RAY

Cosmetically, my wife, who is not by any stretch of the imagination an interior designer, was very happy when I got rid of my RF3s in black in favor of the RF7s in cherry. But that is for our house. I am not an interior designer, but an architect/engineer and I will tell you that women don't necessarily prefer smaller objects, it's how well the meld into the environment ie, we have a baby grand piano in our living room, not a spinet. Additionally,when I spoke of WAF I was referring more to the $$$$.

Speaking about the $$, True, one may be able to sweet talk a dealer to near the list price of an 7 series setup, but then again, if the relationship is strong, one should be able to negotiate the list on the 7 series in like fashon. Whatever the case, the THX Ultras are still way more money, and questionable as far as I am concerned in terms of price/value.

You never addressed the issue of electronics...what were you using for each system? Another thing I just noticed, your comparison was between a full THX Ultra system verses a MIXED 7 series, 35 series, 15 series. I have no doubt that that setup would lack trhe seamlessness of the THX in surround. It is grossly mismatched. Try to imagine the Blue Angels in their F/A 18s flying in competition to the Thunderbirds in their F16s but with the T Birds with a spitfire in place of one F16 and two Cessnas on wing. Might look interesting, but certainly isn't competitive or harmoneous. Try getting some RS7s in place of those 35s and at least RB 35s for the rears and then do the same comparo...I'll bet you will find there is quite a difference. I say this with authority because when I transitioned from 3 series to 7 series I kept my RS3 side surounds and rear surrounds. The system was only so-so till I got the 7 series suurrounds. I can also speak with authority about the RB15s, since I use them for mains in my MBR. While an excellent "little speaker", they can't hold a candle to 7 series, they sound "horn..ie and nasal by comparison.

A "system" is like a chain, only as strong as it's weakest link.

[MrMcGoo]

Folks have made good points regarding the price/performance ratio with the Rx-7 package versus the THX Ultra2 package. However, very little has been mentioned regarding the capability of the Rx-7 package to blend seamlessly.

I am like many HT enthusiasts today in that I have a receiver that does acoustic room correction. After acoustic calibration, my front speakers give a perfectly seamless front as near as I can tell. Front to back is very good, but not perfect.

I can see no reason to give up the musicality and slam from the Rx-7 system when my receiver gives me a very seamless front. I do not see the small woofers on the Ultra2 system as being able to keep up with the 10 inchers on the RF-7s. It is simple physics; the tens can move more air.

On the other hand, if I were a bass freak like some folks around here, I would love to have the THX Ultra2 subwoofers!

Bill

[kenratboy]

I'm drooling.

[htxpert]

(Quote)

Folks have made good points regarding the price/performance ratio with the Rx-7 package versus the THX Ultra2 package. However, very little has been mentioned regarding the capability of the Rx-7 package to blend seamlessly.

I am like many HT enthusiasts today in that I have a receiver that does acoustic room correction. After acoustic calibration, my front speakers give a perfectly seamless front as near as I can tell. Front to back is very good, but not perfect.

Please dont try and read into my comments I love the Reference Series speakers and as I have said in the first post they have there strenths over the THX Ultra II system

I used an Aragon Stage One and a Yamaha RXV 2400

on both systems. Currently both are being evaluated and demo'd with the 2400 YPAO and or auto room correction may fool you into thinking that you are able to obtain a flat correct response from your speakers and it may be somewhat effective in some rooms but it is not a perfect solution. All of the Auto room set up Eq programs that Yamhaha,Denon and Pioneer are using are not very accurate all one need to do is verify SPL level settings with there SPL meter to see what I am talking about I have seen 3-8 dB errors in the software and corrected EQ plots that are way off I think one needs to evaluate the THX Ultra II system up against the Reference system and decide for themselves If you have not demo'd the THX Ultra II system how do you know the Reference series speakers are close in performance to the THX Ultra II

for movie soundtracks? not trying to be hostile here

but that's like saying a Camaro and a TransAM drive exactly the same even though you have never driven the TransAM The THX Ultra II system has a totally different dispersion pattern than that of the Reference series Its Vertical Octave and Horizontal Octave Polars are very different I think this may have more to do with its ability to perform better for Multi-Channel Movie sound tracks than anything else I may be wrong but I think the engineers set out to design this speaker package with this in mind with no compromises

toward that end and everything else in its design philosophy was secondary With the Reference Series I believe it was designed to be a very good speaker system for all formats A jack of all trades type speaker

does this make sense?

As to the question on what I have installed

I have been in the industry for 18 years with 12 years experience in Custom Installation In the Klipsch line I have installed K Horns,La Scala,Heresy,KPT-941,KPT-250,KPT-200,KPT-100KI-102,KI-262,Ki-362,KP-250

All Reference Series, All Synergy Series, All KLF and KSP series, Contractor series, HS series and the old THX series as well as most other manufactured Loudspeakers and Subwoofers in Consumer and Pro Audio environments I dont know it all infact I learn something new every week and I am learning from this

conversation as well

[htxpert]

(Quote)

verses a MIXED 7 series, 35 series, 15 series. I have no doubt that that setup would lack trhe seamlessness of the THX in surround. It is grossly mismatched. Try to imagine the Blue Angels in their F/A 18s flying in competition to the Thunderbirds in their F16s but with the T Birds with a spitfire in place of one F16 and two Cessnas on wing. Might look interesting, but certainly isn't competitive or harmoneous. Try getting some RS7s in place

I have demo'd the RF-7 in every configuration possible

Including 5 RF-7's and 2 RB-75's

FYI the RS-7 is not a perfect match for the RF-7 and employs the same tweeter as the RF-35 and the RB-15 The 1" Titanium 90x60 Tractrix The RF-7 uses a

completly different tweeter the 1.75" Titanium 90x60 Tractrix The Match would be a RB-75 or RC-7 surround I have used them both in a complete Reference system

[JewishAMerPrince]

Ray

The RS7 employs a K122 horn tweeter designed for it and the RS35 employs a K129DN, while they both may have the same size voice coils they are definity different. Also, the RS7 employs a much larger bass driver so it has fuller bodied lower midrange. When tested side by side the RS7 has the warm full bodied sound of the earlier (pre Chinese) References, including the RF7, while the RS35 has the somewhat drier,brighter sound of the newer Klipsch series'. The overall effect is that the RS7 sounds smoother and more robust, quite like the RF7, while the RS35 has a thinner (some call it air-ier)character. While some may prefer one sound to the other, the point is that they are DIFFERENT timbre which when used together cause the surround action to "jump" from speaker to speaker when panning rather than move seamlessly.

I am still curious as to what electronics you used for your test, especially wether or not you used the same setup for both systems. As a HT Expert, you are aware that different electronics can make the same speakers sound completely different, and that surround effects , movement, seamlessness and center clarity are highly dependent on the quality of the processor.

[htxpert]

Hi

The RF-35 is currently being used as the rear surround

not the RS-35 no where did I mention the use of the RS-35 (The RF-35 Towers) There are more sonic similarities between the RS-7 surround and the RF-35 than the RS-7 and the RF-7 a frequency test generator will verify this and IMOHO using the RF-35 tower as the rear surround in our demo room sounds better than using the RS-7 that we had previously. but as I have said in the above posts we have had the Reference series set up in multi configurations including the use of RS-7 as the surrounds A close sonic match for the RF-7 would be the use of an RB-75 or RC-7 as the surround channel These speakers yielded the best overall sonic match to the RF-7 we have had the Reference system set up this way The question about electronics was also addressed a couple of posts back I Used the Aragon

Stage One for both systems and am now currently using

the Yamaha RXV2400 to Demo both systems

Cheers

[JewishAMerPrince]

Ray

Sorry, I must have missed that post about the electronics. Just to let you know, I wasn't trying to be critical of your equipment choices, just better trying to "weigh" the validity of your initial evaluations. I have a specific purpose for this. I build two to three Multi-million dollar luxury homes a year, more and more of which are being equipped with dedicated theaters. Since Audio is a passion of mine I closely participate and/or solely select equipment. The Ultra system , although pricy, could be a strong candidate for the rooms where we endeaver to hide the speakers. (I, myself find nothing attractive about small black boxes.) One of these homes is under construction at this very moment. Since I currently have nowhere to audition the Ultras, your initial opinion post was of more interest to me than most. I just needed to fully qualify it. The last home we built was set up nearly identically to my own HT. RF/RC/RS 7 series powered by Rotel separates. The sound is totally and unequivocally seamless and the surround steering is superb. My installer is both a Klipsch and Rotel dealer and I have had the opportunity to listen to the 7 series with both Aragon and Rotel. For my ears I prefer the Rotel/Klipsch mix, to the Aragon/Klipsch mix, even without the differring cost factored in. I think this is largely due to the superior steering of CL processor in the 1098 over the Motorola in the Stage 1. The 1098 also seems to yeild less "cupped hands" horn effect out of the RC7 than the Stage 1 does, probably due to differences in frequency response.

[htxpert]

Hi

Ok I understand your position as I work closely with builders myself. I assume you are using the RC-7 in its horizontal position as the center for the RF-7 system

just for kicks try the RC-7 in its vertical position

and play some Foley Effects that pan from L-C-R or

R-C-L The Haunting (Chapter where Katherine Zeta Jones?) walks out of the room and the big door closes behind here is a good one the sound travels from the shallow left to hard center and then hard right I think you will see how dispersion plays a critical role in how the track sounds The same can be done with pink noise panning from the LCR but is a little less detectable I find it interesting that you preferred the Rotel over the Aragon I agree that the DSP's in

particular pre amps and receivers can have a huge impact on the way steering the signal is accomplished and is very important I just completed an Install with a highly regarded entry level pre amp and I thought that its DSP was terrible information that was present on other pre amps I have installed was buried or omitted on this pre amp Did you evaluate the two with an Analog source at all or just digital ?

Cheers

And As Always

Happy Listening