sub's home

[steelie]

Got the PB2+ delivered on Tuesday. I can't heap any more praise on this monster than other proud owners already have in the past. All I can say is that I don't have to try very hard to make myself feel good about this purchase. I'm all smiles. Just about the only thing I'm not too sure of is its size. I measure before buying, twice, and I still wasn't prepared for how big it truly is. I never thought I'd look at my RF7s and think they looked anything but huge. Now, everything is in proportion.

First surprise? I closed my eyes, put on Bach's Toccatas and Fugues, and the elephant in the corner did something I never imagined. It melted away. All I heard was a pipe organ. WOW.

[IndyKlipschFan]

put on Bach's Toccatas and Fugues.hehehehehe

Love that on K horns and the RSW 15 too!

Utterly delightful, and a Moooving experience. And that is no cow joke either.

[steelie]

ha aggg

A day ago I wasn't mooving THAT fast, though.

[RickB]

Congrats, you got yourself a great sub. It is rather large but I've had mine for over a year now and I only notice it when it shakes me off the couch.

Get a copy of the Titan AE DVD in DTS and strap yourself in, it will really show what your PB2+ can do.

[CECAA850]

Sounds like it's time for some movies! There it really shines. Open Range will have you looking outside for lightning, U-571 will "blow" you away and the Haunting will have you checking your foundation, Master and Commander is a LFE treat. The list goes on and on....... Have fun, Carl.

[steelie]

I've only had a limited opportunity to check out movies so far... gotta pay for that sub after all. I put on Finding Nemo and went straight to the Darla scene. I was the rattled fish in that tank. My oh my.

The sub's reputation for movies is one of the reasons I actually tried it out with music first. I had high expectations that it would blow me away with movies but would it for music?

Well, from Morphine to Bach, I haven't heard the low end on my system sound that good in a while. Balanced correctly, the sub just disappears.

I'm afraid my complaint about the bass from my fronts has everything to do with my receiver's poor output. (When I crank the volume to enjoy the deep bass the RF7s can push out, I can hear the strain on the upper end and it has been grating on me)

Still, up to now, I've always hated using the sub for 2-channel music and I've resorted to listening at lower volumes.

Now, as much as this is a radical shift in thinking for me, crossing over the low frequencies on the fronts and using the sub just sounds better. The cross over seems to be relaxing the high end so I can push the amp harder before I begin hearing the strain.

The sub isn't my long-term solution to 2-channel music but it is a compromise that will do fine until I can scrounge the bucks for a separate amp.

Movies ... Lots to choose from but Blade is first on the list. Yeah, it's old. It's also the first movie I heard that bottomed out my KSW 12. I've lived with that disappointment for years. Now, it's time to redeem everything.

[yromj]

It's hard to believe that a sub can "disappear" like that isn't it? My wife and I were both impressed when we started listening to our SVS, and it's a "22"-31PCi. I can only imagine what that beast you have sounds like. I know it gives you the SVS s for sure.

John- Who's ing a lot too

[v3spitfire]

Steeler, where are you crossing over at. I'm considering a new sub. My preamp crosses over at 100 only. I wasn't sure if this is optimal for my RF7s - thinking maybe it should be lower.

Do you use the LFE out, or do you run RCA into the sub, and then out to the amps. If so, what crossover?

[steelie]

I use an RCA cable from my reciever to the sub and let the reciever cross over at 80 hz. Unfortunately, that's as low as the Denon will let me cut the frequency. I really haven't ever had an issue with setting the speakers to small and cutting their low frequency during movie playback. My concern has always been with music, particularly because it seems like signals as high as 80 hz can still have a lot of directional qualities to them. and I don't like the idea of hearing the bass, or kick drum or whatever coming from the corner of the room when it's supposed to be coming at me from both speakers. For me, this is a compromise using an extraordinary sub until I can get an amp that will do the job.

[dougdrake]

Steelie - No need to compromise on the cross-over. Just connect the sub using the speaker-level connections and connect your speakers through the sub, using its cross-over instead of the pre-amps. Just be sure to turn off the sub setting in your preamp and set the mains to large so you get the full signal to the sub.

[steelie]

That's something I hadn't been considering for some reason. If you follow that route, connecting the fronts and disabling the reciever's crossover, will that also determine how low the frequencies are cut to the surrounds? It seems like it would because the sub's crossover would tell it to play only frequencies below, say 40hz. Meanwhile, if the surrounds are set to small with an 80 hz crossover you get a gap in response.

I guess the answer would be to switch back and forth between enabling/disabling the sub's crossover.

It's something I'll have to play with over the weekend.

Thanks for the tip.

[DrWho]

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On 9/2/2004 9:18:17 AM steelie wrote:

That's something I hadn't been considering for some reason. If you follow that route, connecting the fronts and disabling the reciever's crossover, will that also determine how low the frequencies are cut to the surrounds? It seems like it would because the sub's crossover would tell it to play only frequencies below, say 40hz. Meanwhile, if the surrounds are set to small with an 80 hz crossover you get a gap in response.

I guess the answer would be to switch back and forth between enabling/disabling the sub's crossover.

It's something I'll have to play with over the weekend.

Thanks for the tip.

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or just set the surrounds to large

[sivadselim]

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On 9/2/2004 9:18:17 AM steelie wrote:

That's something I hadn't been considering for some reason. If you follow that route, connecting the fronts and disabling the reciever's crossover, will that also determine how low the frequencies are cut to the surrounds? It seems like it would because the sub's crossover would tell it to play only frequencies below, say 40hz. Meanwhile, if the surrounds are set to small with an 80 hz crossover you get a gap in response.

I guess the answer would be to switch back and forth between enabling/disabling the sub's crossover.

It's something I'll have to play with over the weekend.

Thanks for the tip.

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you don't disable the receiver's crossover if you still want to run the surrounds as SMALL. you use the sub's speaker level inputs and it's crossover, and you tell your receiver that you have NO SUB and that your fronts are LARGE. what will happen in this setup, with the surrounds still set in the receiver as SMALL, is that the front speakers will cover the surround's range between the sub's crossover setting and the surround's (receiver's) crossover setting. there will be no gap. the rerouted surround frequencies (below 80Hz) will just be spread differently between the front speakers and sub.

the concern when doing this, though, is that your LFE is rerouted properly. most receivers will do it correctly when set up as 5.0 (or 6.0). but be aware that many (if not all) universal players will NOT reroute the LFE properly when the player is set up with NO SUB; it gets dropped completely by most players in a 5.0 set up. if you have no universal player, this is, of course, a moot point.

and be careful using discs like avia to confirm this. be aware that the avia calibration tracks are not pure LFE. there IS a pure LFE track on avia, the "low frequency sweep, LFE" track IS pure LFE. if you can't hear it at all in that setup, then your LFE is not being rerouted properly.

[steelie]

That makes a lot more sense and it seems really conveniant. I'll definitely try that out. Where do you suggest setting the crossover on the RF7s, 40 hz, 60?

Seems like I've heard varying opinions on whether the crossover should be set a full octave above the speaker's lowest range. I think that would put the cross over up around 60, wouldn't it?

If I understood your second point, I'm not sure the universal player issue applies to my setup. I've got a Denon 2200. When I use the digital output the player follows whatever settings are established by the reciever. When I use the analog outputs for SACD or DVD-A, which are connected to the reciever's external input, the player establishes the settings as well as a the bass management.

Did I understand you correctly?

thanks for the input again

[sivadselim]

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On 9/2/2004 1:47:34 PM steelie wrote:

Where do you suggest setting the crossover on the RF7s, 40 hz, 60?

Seems like I've heard varying opinions on whether the crossover should be set a full octave above the speaker's lowest range. I think that would put the cross over up around 60, wouldn't it?

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if you're using the speaker-level connections and the sub's crossover, i would set this "by ear", as it's somewhat room specific. be aware that, often, the numbers on the scale on the sub's crossover dial don't always jibe with the actual setting. set it "by ear". also be aware that on most subs (not sure if yours applies) the crossover knob or dial ONLY adjusts the low pass filter. the high-pass filter, or what gets sent to the mains, remains fixed, usually. this is not necessarily a bad thing, as many people find they can blend their sub better with this sort of asymmetric crossover. another reason to set the sub's crossover "by ear" when using the speaker level connections.

yes, the "dogma" is that the crossover should be set an octave above your speaker's F3, but this is often either not practical nor really necessary. again, set it "by ear".

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On 9/2/2004 1:47:34 PM steelie wrote:

If I understood your second point, I'm not sure the universal player issue applies to my setup. I've got a Denon 2200. When I use the digital output the player follows whatever settings are established by the reciever. When I use the analog outputs for SACD or DVD-A, which are connected to the reciever's external input, the player establishes the settings as well as a the bass management.

Did I understand you correctly?

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i too have a denon2200. if you set it (the 2200) up with NO SUB then, analog-wise, you WILL lose your LFE information! the 2200 does NOT reroute the LFE to the front analog outs, but instead drops it altogether, when set up with NO SUB (5.0). trust me on this. i've had to prove it to many disbelieving people many times, but it's true.

so setting the player up like that (NO SUB) is not a viable option for you. if you can bass manage your receiver's (or pre/pro's) external inputs, then you can leave the SUB ON at the player and let the receiver bass manage the ext.inputs. but most receiver's do not allow any sort of bass-management of the external inputs.

if you use the players digital connection for movies, this is moot, because the player does not apply ANY settings to the digi output; that would get done at the receiver (or ore/pro).

the dropped or lost LFE becomes a real concern, though, if you DO play your movies via the analog connections and/or during playback of sacd/dvd-a material that DOES have an LFE track.

if this gets too complicated, i'd recommend sticking with the 80Hz crossover that your receiver (or pre/pro) and player both have and leaving all the speakers set to SMALL.

i'm assuming your receiver has a fixed crossover, which is why you haven't considered a lower crossover all around, right?