Klipschorn + Belle HT receiver saga - part 1

[DTLongo]

What receiver to use in a 5.1 home theater comprised of 2003 Klipschorn front mains, a 2004 Belle Klipsch center and Klipsch RS-35 surrounds? I have gone through three receivers so far since completing setting up this dream speaker array in September.

The first was my preexisting five-year old Onkyo DX-TS575 Dolby Digital receiver. Disappointing. A thin, trebly, weak-bassy and un-full sound with the Khorns.

The second was my preexisting 12-year old obsolescent Pioneer VSX-5700S Dolby Pro Logic receiver. What a difference! That old Pioneer really made those Khorns sing. Plenty of push in the bass and a warm, full tube-like sound. I can say that since I also bought and ran a Jolida 102 tube amp with the Khorns and it was not noticeably better than the Pioneer. (At that time, before the Belle, I was running the Khorns in straight stereo mode.) I sold the Jolida on eBay for about two/thirds what I paid for it. (continued)

[DTLongo]

(continued) Third up was a new, near-top of the line Pioneer VSX52TX 7.1-channel receiver, list $1000, paid $800. All the bells and whistles including automatic calibration with a microphone, additional manual calibration options, two manual-equalization setting choices allowing user-defined five-band equalization for each speaker, and more. To my very great surprise, disappointing. Like the Onkyo, the Khorns paled in the bass. A very clear, but dry and antiseptic sound. Also: unlighted remote, bass and treble tone controls usable only in straight-stereo mode (a characteristic that I gather is shared by several other multichannel receivers), maximum only 6 db bass and treble tone boost/cut, inaudible loudness compensation, and my sense that the thing was just plain overengineered with bells and whistles for their own sake. Then, after three weeks the electronics starting acting up. Settings got unstable and the receiver would not accept being re-set to its factory settings. I returned it for refund.

That's just as well, since using a 6.1 or 7.1 receiver for a 5.1 speaker array never did really sit that well with me (my room will not accommodate more speakers). So, I looked hard for a good 5.1 receiver. Part II of this saga, shortly to follow, will tell you what receiver I think I have settled upon, at less than half the cost of the Pioneer 52 and it sounds better!

[lynnm]

I have to wonder whether the RS35's are a good choice for a system with 3 big Heritage speakers on the front end. I suspect that a pair of Heresy or Cornwall would be a better match.

Don't misunderstand me here I am not rapping the RS35s but I suspect that they are not a especially good timbre match for the Heritage line.They would doubtless be an excellent choice if the front line consisted of Reference Series

Leaving that aside your experience certainly demonstrates the importance of synergy when building a system.

[DTLongo]

Lynnm, you are right in principle, of course. But my room will not accommodate anything much bigger than the RS-35's. I considered RS-7's but they were too big, visually.

The RS-35's fill the bill spacewise nicely and attractively. See attached pic. Also, since the surround channels aren't that critical, they do a good enough job there sonically, too. Actually, with the white-noise test tone they are not that timbrally far apart from the big three up front.

Anyway, for movies a Velodyne S1500R sub does the heavy lifting way down low. My frustration with the Onkyo and Pioneer 52 was that without the sub, the deep bass they put into the Khorns was virtually nil. That good old Pioneer VSX5700 just blew them away in terms of low and low-mid bass it pushed into the Khorns, no kidding, no comparison. With that receiver they were truly awesome with pure, unrestrained, easy, deep, impactful bass (and all the rest) that you FEEL as well as hear.

You are surely right about "synergy."

[Audio Flynn]

Third up was a new, near-top of the line Pioneer VSX52TX 7.1-channel receiver, list $1000, paid $800. All the bells and whistles including automatic calibration with a microphone, additional manual calibration options, two manual-equalization setting choices allowing user-defined five-band equalization for each speaker, and more. To my very great surprise, disappointing.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am not surprised. I tried to warn you.

I went through the same HT frustration.

Someone is selling a used B&K receiver somewhere on the forum. Other than that I would buy separates.

Mine are Sherwood Newcastle; very few bells and whisteles. Reasonably friendly with my RB-5s.

I have never tried the Chorus IIs in the HT amp set up.

Too many DACS and too poor of implmentation in the mass market receivers for your horns or you to be happy.

As you have found...

[DTLongo]

What is "DACS"?

[J.4knee]

Have you considered any of the Yamaha units? I use a Yamaha RX-V3300 with my three La Scala front array and three Heresy II rear array and I am very happy with it.

Also have you considered Heresys on the sidewalls for your surrounds? That works well for me. I am not familiar with you room dimensions, but it s an idea anyhow. Better timbre match to your front array.

[Audio Flynn]

DACs

Digital to Analog Converters

DSP chip

Digital Sound Processor

LCD

Liquid Crystal Display

+++++++++++++++++++++

These are not the "friends" of making music.

Too much stuff adds distortion in a HT receiver!

[lynnm]

"What is "DACS"?"

The term DAC is generally erroneously applied to 1/2 of what is a 2 part process ( each part of which involves Umpetty-Eleven sub-processes ).

I am not an engineer folks so please don't ask for greater detail than I offer here because at best you'll get a blank stare....at worst you'll get told to search a few years of Proceedings of The Society of Electrical Engineers

.

DAC = Digital to Analogue Convertor

ADC = Analogue to Digital Convertor

In order for a computer chip to process Analogue information such as a sound wave

the sound wave must be converted into a digital form by an ADC.

Digital circuitry (such as is found in CD players,multi channel amps/receivers etc.) can deal only with data that is in digital form. This is because in the digital world signals need to be in the format of 1 (on) or 0 (off).Sound whether in the form of speech or music or rap is analogue ( continuously variable between on and off).

The conversion of analogue data to digital data is accomplished via a process known as sampling. In other words the ADC unit takes what amounts to snapshots of the analogue sound wave several thousands of times per second and converts each tiny bit of captured analogue information into a series of on/off signals which the digital processor(s)within a piece of equipment can recognise as data which then can be manipulated as needed. Generally speaking the higher the sampling rate the more successfully an ADC converts analogue data into digital data.

That is the first half of the process.

While digital devices can "hear/see" in digital....We cannot. Thus once the analogue signal has been digitised so that it can be understood and processed by CD/DVD/SACD players etc. that information must then be converted back to an analogue signal which can be utilised by our amplifiers and speakers and ultimately our ears.

Thus:

Original Sound > 78 RPM record or 45 RPM record/LP/Cassette/tuner/microphone >

LP(A)->amp (A)->Speakers(A)Ears(A) ie. No conversion needed

CD/HDCD/SACD/DVDA (D)

Original Sound >(A)ADC >Analogue to Digital Conversion >(D)> DAC Digital to Analogue Conversion > Amp(A)>Speakers(A)>Ears(A).

In the end the only thing that really matters is the quality of the signal that reaches our ears.

[psg]

What is "DACS"?

DACs? Digital/Analog Converters.

I'm surprised you are having such a hard time. The speakers are set to "large" right? (I know it's a stupid question). My La Scala's sound great to me on a mid-fi harman/kardon avr 325. But I've not found of any fake surround modes. I listen to plain stereo for CDs and only use the rear speakers on music for DD or DTS encoded sources (no SACD or DVDA yet as my older DVD player doesn't output them).