dubai2000 Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 In last weeks thread quite a few suggestions of works to be mentioned came up and also the question of how to choose a recording. Its true, if you want to listen to Sgt. Peppers you know you are talking about a Beatles CD/LP and thats that! But with classical music this is different. Take Beethoven: countless recordings of symphonies, concertos, and even his only opera Fidelio can be bought with many different performers. So how does everybody choose? I remember in my teens I kind of fell for the covers of DG and once having discovered DG it was difficult to escape Herbert von Karajan. So my first LPs of classical music usually belonged to the yellow label and were conducted by the former Berlin chief. At the same time buying a recording was still possible in dedicated record shops where shop assistants actually KNEW what they were talking about. Later I was introduced to THE British/European institution when it comes to recorded classical music, GRAMOPHONE magazine (now of course with its own website: www.gramophone.co.uk). Suddenly here I was introduced to meaningful LP/CD reviews and, although after a time I discovered that even those experts are biased, I am still renewing my subscription regularly. I have never managed to have a go at Fanfare (not sold in Germany as far as I know), so Id appreciate any statement concerning this magazines value as source of information. Another option might be listening to some classical radio stations and here again the UK is a good source. Try Radio 3 of the BBC...especially their weekly programme Building a Library (you will find them on: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/). But despite all such options, it will be you ears/taste which decides on what you like. So now to Beethoven: An example of very controversial taste is Anne-Sophie Mutters latest CD/SACD recording of the Violin Concerto on DG (471633-2 for the SACD). I dont think I have read a single positive review of that disk. Her tempi are indeed sometimes very slow and most commentators seem to see that as an attempt by the soloist to place herself before the music. Well, I beg to disagree. To my ears this is a very moving performance which made me think of religious devotion when playing it for the first time. I am very taken with it, but of course the danger of such extremes is that it spoils your ears for a different (equally valid) approach (similar to the Tchaikovsky Piano Concert No.1 recording made by Horowitz mentioned by Larry last week). So I guess a newcomer to the piece might as well get the Heifetz/Much performance (Living Stereo SACD) for something more classical. But as this examples shows: many other performances might do the trick for you. Much as there is said for performances that follow the letter of the score, I also have a soft spot for recordings with an individual character. So if you are into Beethoven, which works/performances do you like? Is your choice more a question of performance or sonics ? Do you also consider historic (read: mono) performances or do you insist on a certain technical standard? Like last week all contributions will be welcomed! Thanks for reading. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 I'd like to mention a slightly lesser-known and played Beethoven concerto, the "Triple Concerto" for violin, cello and piano in C, Op. 58. The opus no. places it between the Third symphony, Eroica, Op. 55 and the Fourth, Op. 60, and thus written as his "middle period" was going into full swing. Parenthetically, practically every one of his opus numbers in this middle range of his works (they run from op. 1 to 135 or so) is a well-known, world-class work, a phenomenon I haven't noticed with any other composer. I think the Triple has interesting ways of handling the cello and violin -- while Beethoven didn't usually write for "singing" cellos the way, say, Tchaikovsky did, here he frequently wrote for it in a surprisingly high register. Repeatedly, he starts a theme in what sounds like the violin, except it's actually the cello playing well up in the treble register, followed by the violin playing higher still. It's useful to listen for how a cello sounds subtly different from a violin in its higher range. I happen to think Beethoven was a master at orchestration and at how to relate instruments and soloists to one another, and to believe that shows up here. My principal interest in the work is its tunefulness, at times drama, and the variety of having three soloists. The last movement is especially rhythmic, strong, and interesting, not light-weight as some are. Lots of fast, demanding string passages. The recording I recommend is EMI 7243-5-55516-2, by Itzhak Perlman, Yo-Yo Ma, and Daniel Barenboim, with Barenboim conducting the Berlin Philharmonic. These soloists are tops, and they play like it, too -- couldn't ask for better! Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Speaking of the Triple Concerto, I have that particular performance by YoYo Ma, Pearlman and Barenboim on DVD. I picked it up after hearing the CD at Larry's. Fantastic recording and for someone like me, it helps to watch the performers to get a a better understanding of the music, how different instruments blend together, etc. Overall it's just really cool to watch on you HT. These guy are legends and you get chills watching them walk out on stage. I got my copy at Tower but it's probably pretty easy to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 I could see how an Ex-Deadhead would need that type of visual reinforcement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 What do you mean "EX" Deadhead! Once a Deadhead, always a Deadhead. Doesn't mean I can't expand my musical horizons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krustyoldsarge Posted October 30, 2004 Share Posted October 30, 2004 Always have liked Toscanini's interpretation of the 9 Symphonies (RCA Gold Label). Actually, I'm a Bach guy myself. Helmuth Rilling's vision of Bach's Cantatas could appeal to a Beethoven type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted October 31, 2004 Author Share Posted October 31, 2004 I admit to my shame that I am not really familiar with Toscanini's Beethoven - I guess I am more of a Furtwängler guy . But the symphonies (or their recordings) are almost a special 'topic'. I have a soft spot for Karajan's early 1960s cycle (bar the 6th), recently reissued as SACD hybrids by DG. But then there is a Furtwängler 3rd from Vienna (1944!) which is absolutely stunning in its emtional intensity, or the first Roger Norringon set on EMI (on so-called period instruments) and many more! Another recording I often play when evaluating the musical qualities of unknown gear is the (young) Barenboim/Klemperer EMI recording of the 'Choral Fantasy' (coupled with the five piano concertos). The work might not be Beethoven at his best, but this particular recording is among the most natural classical recording in my collection. Highly recommended! Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krustyoldsarge Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 ---------------- On 10/31/2004 8:03:02 AM dubai2000 wrote: I admit to my shame that I am not really familiar with Toscanini's Beethoven - I guess I am more of a Furtwängler guy . But the symphonies (or their recordings) are almost a special 'topic'. I have a soft spot for Karajan's early 1960s cycle (bar the 6th), recently reissued as SACD hybrids by DG. But then there is a Furtwängler 3rd from Vienna (1944!) which is absolutely stunning in its emtional intensity, or the first Roger Norringon set on EMI (on so-called period instruments) and many more! Another recording I often play when evaluating the musical qualities of unknown gear is the (young) Barenboim/Klemperer EMI recording of the 'Choral Fantasy' (coupled with the five piano concertos). The work might not be Beethoven at his best, but this particular recording is among the most natural classical recording in my collection. Highly recommended! Wolfram ---------------- Thought I read something in the liner notes about Toscanini and Furtwängler being serious rivals. I was alive back then and recall seeing Toscanini on TV a couple of times. Those two certainly had different ways of looking at Beethoven. Furtwängler's performance of the 9th at Bayreuth is breathtaking. Hope the labels release more of this good old stuff on SACD (though I don't have a player yet). Again, if you like choral music and you haven't heard Rilling do Bach, you're missing out on a treat. Bis bald! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted October 31, 2004 Author Share Posted October 31, 2004 I think I read somewhere that indeed some (Japanese?) company is going to issue some Furtwängler performances on SACD (though I doubt that this will improve sonics per se, unless they remaster the 'original' tapes as well). One does read that Toscanini and Furwängler were 'rivals', but of course that was perhaps early media hype as well - who knows. What is noticable, though, is that Toscanini in his old age tended to choose faster tempi, whereas Furwängler got slower (an interesting example illustarting Furtwängler's 'development' are the 1937 Covent Garden 'Walküre' excerpts compared to the 1950s EMI Vienna studio recording). Bach - also his choral works - don't come easy to me. For me it was period performance Bach that made such works 'palatable'. I don't know Rilling's interpretations, but like Gardiner on DG (and for the ' St. Matthew Passion' I find McCreesh's 2003 recording (also on DG) interesting - he only uses eight(!) singers for the whole piece and no large choir - he even quotes some historical justification for that decision, but I don't quite remember it). Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I have come to realize fairly recently that my preferences for a given performance over any other has very little to do with either musicality or quality of the recording. It seems I am more of a creature of habit than I had realized. On a recent visit by my parents my father commented that a hugely disproportionate number of the recordings and labels I now own are the very same as the ones he used to own and play. In other words I am buying what I was "programmed" to like as a child. At least it explains my love for "Dynagroove" recordings - these have been admitted to have been a total mistake even by the manufacturer - and yet I adore them. Guess who build up most of his collection just as dynagroove was hitting the shelves - yup - dear ole dad. The nub of all of the above is YMMV. The following are the Beethoven's I currently have in my collection. Those in bold are recommended (if I instered the codes properly that is): Fidelio Highlights Opera Various Berlin Philharmonic Herbert Von Karajan EMI Fur Elise Concerto Wilhelm Kempff Deutche Grammaphon Overtures Leonore Egmont Coriolan Fidelio Overtures London Philharmonic Andrew Davis EMI Piano Concerto 1 Concerto Paul Badura-Skoda Vienna State Opera Hermann Scherchen World Record Club Piano Concerto 3 Concerto Claudio Arrau Amsterdam Bernard Haitink Philips Piano Concerto 4 Concerto Alfred Brendel Vienna Pro Musica Heinz Wallberg Vox Piano Concerto 5 Concerto Robert Riefling Oslo Philharmonic Odd Gruner-Hegge RCA Camdenl Piano Concerto 5 Concerto Rubinstein Josef Krips RCA Victor Red Seal Piano Concerto 5 Concerto Rubinstein Boston Symphony Erich Leinsdorf RCA Victor Red Seal Piano Concerto No. 2 Concerto Alfred Brendel Vienna Volksoper Wilfried Boettcher Turnabout Piano Sonatas 8,14,23 Sonata Daniel Chorzempa EMI Quartet 16 / Grosse Fuge Small Inst. Broadus Erle Yale Quartet Vanguard Quartet in D+ / Quartet in C- Small Inst. Leonard Sorkin Fine Arts Quartet Concert Disk Serenade Op 8 Seranade Heifetz / Primrose / Piatigorsky RCA Victor Red Seal Sonata violin & piano 10 and part 9 Sonata Lucien Savin / Ani Gazarian Opus 3 Symphony 1 and 8 Symphony Swiss Romande Ernest Ansermet London Symphony 2 and 4 Symphony Frankfurt Opera Carl Bamburger / Walter Goehr Concert Hall Record Club Symphony 2 and 4 Symphony London Symphony Josef Krips Everest Records Symphony 3 Symphony Philharmonia Otto Klemperer EMI Symphony 3 Symphony NBC Symphony Arturo Toscanini RCA Victor Red Seal Symphony 5 Symphony Philharmonia Otto Klemperer EMI Symphony 5 and 8 Symphony Philadelphia Eugene Ormandy Colombia Symphony 6 Symphony Vienna Philharmonic Pierre Montreux RCA Victor Red Seal Symphony 7 Symphony Amsterdam Concert Orchestra Eugen Jochum Philips Symphony 9 Symphony Cleveland Lorn Maazel CBS The ruins of Athens / The Creatures of Prometheus Symphony Berlin Philharmonic Bernhard Klee Deutche Grammaphon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Now that is funny - the Violin concerto is missing from the list. Only my favorite piece of Beethoven - rather traditional I am afraid - Heifetz/Munch/Boston mono RCA. Highly recommended of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Max, one of the new Living Stereo SACDs is Heifetz, Munch and the BSO doing the Beethoven violin concerto (and the Mendelssohn). The Beethoven was recorded in 1955, produced by John Pfeiffer, etc. -- is that the same recording? It's great! Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Larry, I am not 100% certain but I think mine is an earlier recording than that (and therefore mono). I will have to check it out tonight when I get home. Its funny isn't it - I regard this record as one of my prize possessions - and it cost me $1!!!!! I am circling the Pioneer all in one player (there are just none in the country right now) as something that will at least play back my existing SACDs aside from building the collection further. If I can get hold of that - or something similar - I will certainly hunt down the Violin concerto. As it happens whilst out hunting for a present for SWMBO's 40th I stumbled upon a couple of shops that sell SACD's in numbers - I would be willing to bet one of them has the very Heifetz/Munch/BSO title in stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 Max, I don't really think Heifetz/Munch recorded this work twice. I guess it's rather that RCA published the LP in stereo and mono (after all one didn't know if the (then) new stereo format would catch on). Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 As I said Wolfram I am not certain - I just seemed to remember and earlier date. I know that they (the BSO) did a series of broadcast in 1951 which included the Violin concerto. I found the following scant details on it: 10/26/51 Conductor: Charles Munch (Symphony Hall) Jascha Heifetz (vl) Beethoven: Symphony Nº 8 Beethoven: Leonore--Overture Nº 3 Beethoven: Violin Concerto (Heifetz) 10/27/51 Conductor: Charles Munch (Symphony Hall) Jascha Heifetz (vl) Beethoven: Symphony Nº 8 Beethoven: Leonore--Overture Nº 3 Beethoven: Violin Concerto (Heifetz) You can see the full list for the BSO broadcasts at: http://www.koussevitzky.com/Html/BSO_1951.html This matches in with my recollection of the date of my recording - sadly I never bothered to put this much detail on my Db of vinyl that I have. We'll have to wait a while for me to confirm one way or another. Certainly the images I see of the sleeve of the CD look nothing like my album which is a plain white cover - not that that means much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Max, Wolfram: The SACD liner notes say that RCA Victor made its first "experimental binaural" recordings in 1953, Leopold Stokowski conducting -- interesting, as Stokowski, a leader in music recording, recorded stereo snippets with, I believe, the Philadelphia Orchestra way back in the 1930s. The liner notes say that RCA made its first stereo recordings with the Boston and Chicago orchestras in February and March 1954, and apparently did its first stereo releases on pre-recorded reel-to-reel tape in 1955; and that Western Electric produced the Westrex stereo disc cutter in 1958 and RCA issued its first stereo LPs later that year. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Larry, So if that is true then there was a 3 year gap between the original performance and the first stereo recording release on vinyl (good math there Max ole boy). In which case it is fully possible that Wolfram is right and they produced a mono version in the meantime and that is what I have. Oh for a better memory!! Would be much more interesting though - if mine were a different performance - would give a chance to compare the 2. I seem to remember Heifetz was one of those who hated all his previous performances of any piece once he had re-visited it - the problems of being an evolving artist. I just cant imagine how he could have improved on it - did I mention how much I adore this recording?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 The liner notes say that after its 1954 start, RCA then began to record its great artists in two- and three-track stereo -- Heifetz, Reiner, Munch, Rubenstein, etc., probably accounting for the lag from the concerts. Larry Edit: It's certainly possible that RCA re-recorded some artists/performances in stereo for new stereo releases. Record companies put out both mono and stereo LPs for several years before finally phasing out mono disks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted November 1, 2004 Author Share Posted November 1, 2004 Indeed such a comparison can be done: Naxos has issued a bunch of Heifetz's early recordings, amongst them the Beethoven concerto done with Toscanini in 1940. But because my RBCD of the Munch wasn't played very often, I have not compared the two performances (interestingly enough timing is by and large the same!). Talking about Naxos: IMO their historical series contains some fascinating material and is sonically quite good. Other performances of the Beethoven are Huberman/Szell with the VPO in 1934 or Kreisler/Blech in 1926 (the latter supposedly 'less romantic' than a later (London -with Barbirolli?) remake. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 2, 2004 Share Posted November 2, 2004 Well I guess we will never truely know whether we have the same performance or not. There is no date on the record other than for the verbiage on the back of the record cover which is dated 1956. That could have been written an length of time after the recording so it doesnt help much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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