Jim E Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 8:04:33 AM dubai2000 wrote: Jim, the question might be stupid, but when doing what you have described does one (only) stay in front of the listing position or also behind one's favourite sweet spot? Plus there is an opening to right of my listening position, but not to the left. Wolfram ---------------- Wolfram, Not a stupid question at all. Yes, you can but remember that having hard or soft surfaces near the mic will give less than accurate readings and the area behind your "sweet spot" may not be an area of concern. I would measure the area and note the readings but probably not include it in the average. You should take readings in at least the largest acceptable listening area. The point to moving the mic is that it will help reveal problem areas. This can also assist you in speaker and furniture placement. It is amazing how much the response can change in a room by moving a few things or toeing your speakers a few degrees. Experiment and become familiar with your room's acoustic space. Expertise in this stuff is gained by hands on practice and observation. Just as a note, you should maintain the same mic height throughout the process. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Jim, thanks a lot for the advice. Although I am still waiting for delivery, I still have two more question: I understand that Mike has hooked up his unit between source and preamp. I could use a switch box before the Behringer to have a kind of multiple input into the unit (actually I have done that with some other 'toy' and it works just fine) so is that better than putting it between pre- and power amp (like would I have to change settings of the unit when changing listening volume?) and what if I swap power amps - will I have to readjust settings on the Behringer? If only the postman was faster . Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Sorry 'bout that---I accidently hit the SEND button. Mike, et al, Here's the method I use for the initial EQ-ng of my system with the Behringer. Place the measurement mike about a meter in front of and centered on the mid/high drivers of one of the loudspeakers. Be sure to mute the other loudspeaker. Initially you are only interested in the 400 Hz to to 20 kHz spectrum display. Adjust the amplifier level until the 1 kHz band lies vertically on a Y-axis reference. This will give you a "0" reference for the subsequent EQ adjustments. Start with the vertical resolution at 5-10 dB per division. As you continue to make finer EQ adjustments, increase the vertical resolution. Now adjust the graphic EQ (GEQ) settings to tame the peaks. If the peaks are isolated, try using the parametric EQ (PEQ) function. You can adjust the filter action from 1/10-octave to a gentle shelving curve. Notice I haven't mentioned dips or notches in the response. Unless there is a gentle rolloff or dip in the response, don't try to fill that notch---the ear doesn't hear it anyway. A slight dip can be corrected using adjacent 1/3-octave filters or just set the PEQ to a 1/2 or 1/1-octave setting. Some of you have successfully used the Auto EQ function of the Behringer. If you are a newbie to equalization, give it a try. The suggestion to have it ignore frequencies below 200 Hz is a good one. Now, you can either spend several hours trying to achieve a "flat" response or spend a half hour or so getting both loudspeakers to have greatly improved imaging. Al K. has suggested setting both channels to the same EQ settings above 1 kHz or so. I agree. At a one meter measurement point, a loudspeaker shouldn't be influenced by the room from 1 kHz and higher. Besides, you'll save time by setting both EQ filters to the same values. Of course, you need to measure the other loudspeaker to make sure there aren't resonse problems caused by incorrect tap settings on the squawker or other crossover network problems. As far as what to look for below 400 Hz, keep in mind the room shape and size will pretty well determine your bass response. While the mike is at the one meter position, just tame the peaks to get the smoothest overall response with respect to the midrange and treble levels. Now, move the measurement mike to the listening position and notice that the response below 400 Hz may have changed dramatically. There may be several peaks and dips in the response that weren't present a meter away from the loudspeaker. The best bass EQ is to apply appropriate room treatments (membrane absorbers or other resonators) optiomized to trap the problematic room modes. There are several web sites offering room mode calculators--just plug in your room dimensions and the tangential and axial modal frequencies will be listed in tabular and/or graphic form. If you want to try EQ-ing the bass peaks electronically, use the PEQ mode. With a 1/10th-octave notch, you'd be surprised how well it "traps" the modal frequencies without affecting the bass instruments. Those familiar with EQ-ing home systems know that a system that measures "flat" at the listening position is too bright. If you try the above "flat at one meter" approach, and the room has adequate absorption, the response curve will be pretty close to ideal. Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Lee, oh, there is nothing wrong with reading instructive posts twice, but what about my questions? Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 6, 2005 Author Share Posted January 6, 2005 Thanks Lee When I get a chance I will sure try the methods you outlined above. I was hoping and appreciate you telling us your methods for using the Behringer especially since you have had one for awhile now. Thanks for the advice mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim E Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 ---------------- On 1/6/2005 11:43:35 AM dubai2000 wrote: I understand that Mike has hooked up his unit between source and preamp. I could use a switch box before the Behringer to have a kind of multiple input into the unit (actually I have done that with some other 'toy' and it works just fine) so is that better than putting it between pre- and power amp (like would I have to change settings of the unit when changing listening volume?) and what if I swap power amps - will I have to readjust settings on the Behringer? ---------------- Wolfram, You could hook up that way. It would be better if you could insert the unit in a tape loop or somewhere that the volume control doesn't affect the in/out levels. This would help keep the in and out levels to the EQ at a more constant level. If you can't hook up this way, it's ok. The Behringer eq is professional gear so it can take much higher input levels than most home gear can produce. In fact balanced line pro gear usually has better noise specs if they are run at 0 to +4 levels. Most amplifiers should not require more than output level adjustment to compensate for different gain structure between the old and new amp. A good amplifier should be "flat" throughout the audible spectrum so additional changes to your eq settings should not be required. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Jim, no tape loop and if I read your post correctly inserting it prior to volume control (i.e. between sources and preamp) should be more convenient, correct? Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim E Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 ---------------- On 1/7/2005 4:01:49 AM dubai2000 wrote: Jim, no tape loop and if I read your post correctly inserting it prior to volume control (i.e. between sources and preamp) should be more convenient, correct? Wolfram ---------------- Wolfram, Not exactly. If you don't have an insert loop, it would be better to put it between your pre-amp and power amp. Your pre-amp most likely allows you to select your source so this would be more convenient. The point I was making is that the eq has input and output level adjustments. If the input level to the eq changes you also change the noise floor on the output of the eq. In other words...at low listening levels you might have more noise on the output. In most cases it is best to have the volume control just prior to the power amps. Does this make sense? Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 Jim, yes, the preamp does have multiple inputs, so eq 'll go between pre- and power amps. Does this change of noise floor mean I'd have to adjust the eq's input level when I turn down the volume (supposing the Behringer allows this without too much complication)or and how much noise (hiss?) would the unit produce (after all Khorns are kind of sensitive)? I suppose I'd adjust input in a way that the eq reaches its max when I reach my upper volume level? BTW: thanks a bunch for your patience! Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim E Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 ---------------- On 1/7/2005 9:43:49 AM dubai2000 wrote: Jim, yes, the preamp does have multiple inputs, so eq 'll go between pre- and power amps. Does this change of noise floor mean I'd have to adjust the eq's input level when I turn down the volume (supposing the Behringer allows this without too much complication)or and how much noise (hiss?) would the unit produce (after all Khorns are kind of sensitive)? I suppose I'd adjust input in a way that the eq reaches its max when I reach my upper volume level? BTW: thanks a bunch for your patience! Wolfram ---------------- Wolfram, You are welcome. You will have to try it out. The amount of noise (if any) will depend on too many factors to guess. You may find there is no noise at all. My experiance with Behringer products has been good and they build their equipment to fill as many applications as possible. I don't think you will have to adjust the input or output on the eq once you have it setup. You are quite correct, horn systems will reveal everything...good or bad. Every system is different and I am not familiar with your setup but this procedure may help. You will need a decent test CD. The idea here is to get the Behringer in/out levels up to a good working range. Set the input to the Behringer with a 1 kHz tone @ 50% modulation off the test CD fed into your pre-amp. Set the volume control to the highest setting you would normally use on the pre-amp (be sure to turn off and turn down your power amp first) and adjust the input to the eq so that it indicates 0 dB. Now adjust the output on the eq to read 0 dB. Play some familiar reference material through the pre-amp and turn on your power amp with the input controls at minimum. Adjust the inputs on the power amp until you have enough level. I hope this is not too confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Jim, I think I am getting there , the only 'problem' might be that most of my power amps do not have input controls, so I suppose I'll have to turn down the Behringer's output (if necessary) while keeping input as close to 0 dB as possible? Test CD: Is there any you can recommend? Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim E Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 ---------------- On 1/8/2005 1:48:55 PM dubai2000 wrote: Jim, I think I am getting there , the only 'problem' might be that most of my power amps do not have input controls, so I suppose I'll have to turn down the Behringer's output (if necessary) while keeping input as close to 0 dB as possible? Test CD: Is there any you can recommend? Wolfram ---------------- Wolfram, That's about it. Use the output level adjustments on the Behringer. As far as the CD, I have no recomendation. You could use a simple sine wave tone generator as well. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 The Behringer has optical ins and outs on it...Have any of you guys connected your CD players digitally to the device? It's always important to try and reduce the number of AD/DA conversions that go on in the signal chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 8, 2005 Author Share Posted January 8, 2005 Hi Dr WHO I have a Musical Fidelity CDPre/24 and I wanted to take advantage of the Upsampling Dac in it so I decided to use the analog in/out of the Behringer and to be honest I was so happy with the results I didn't worry what it might be like using the digital input but somewhere down the road I'll probably try it just out of curiosity. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Thanks, Jim....now I am just waiting for delivery. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim E Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 ---------------- On 1/8/2005 6:42:18 PM DrWho wrote: The Behringer has optical ins and outs on it...Have any of you guys connected your CD players digitally to the device? It's always important to try and reduce the number of AD/DA conversions that go on in the signal chain. ---------------- Yep...it's true. Keep the signal in the digital domain as much as possible. With recent advances in amplifier technology it is possible to have everything from your source material to your speaker drivers digital (that includes eliminating passive crossovers BTW). Potentially the only analog elements in the recording/playback chain could be the microphones/pick-ups and speaker(s)elements. I'm not saying this is good or bad but the technology is here. Analog playback and recording will become more and more of a "cult thing" once all the equipment manufacturers go full digital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 I am sure you must be tired of my questions by now, but if I had thought things will get easier once the behringer is here, I was definitely wrong . I am sure that it's simply my stupidity, but I could do with some more guidance. Mike or Jim, I have a feeling that this will not be interesting for the forum, so please let me know if I can ask you more (silly) questions - either by PM or email. Thanks. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim E Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Wolfram, Sure. That would be fine. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 10, 2005 Author Share Posted January 10, 2005 Wolfram Will gladly help anyway I can maybe we all will learn more. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 OK, I am starting to play around with this fancy DEQ2496 thing, but understanding all of its powerful features. Like the cockpit of tha small palen, all the buttons and knobs are overwhelming first. Dont know how to make this thing get up and fly. So many features! What does the xxdB, -xxdB on the meter really mean? When it clips at low volumes, what does that mean to me the listener? Does the Bypass shut off all functions? Why cant EQ fill in the nulls it adds more power to those frequencies, right? I understand how EQ can work a driver harder, but how does it work some drivers too hard? Flat frequency response doesnt seem too bright, it seems like too much bass in my current listening room... How do I generate the signal for the RTA? Isnt there a pink noise generator built-in? Is the RTA sensitive enough to detect the presence of a line conditioner (if the conditioner effects the frequency response)? The DEQ2496 has optical inputs, my CD player has coax out are there coax to digital interconnects? Does it make sense to run my player directly into the DEQ2496 and skip my CAL Gamma DAC? Do you use the FBD to zap specific frequencies (like the low 20Hz rumble of the A/C)? Can I expand and widen and EQ and FBD the sound all at the same time? How the hell do you sort through all the possible options and quickly get to the most valuable (tweaking audiophile) settings? Thanks, so far I am loving this thing and I havent figured out how to pull the stops out and get it off the ground! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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