thomwake Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Thank you to dodger & Dr. Who for your advice on building an entertainment center with LaScalas built into it. To address the issue of placement I am planning on putting the two bass bins on either side of the center cabinet which measures 49" wide. I then plan on putting the mid & high horns where ever they would sound best. Remember, I am building this from the ground up so I will have total flexability on where I can place them. I am concerned with staging and the "sweet spot" which I know a little bit about (I worked my way through college installing home and car audio equipment for a audio store in town) but, correct me if I am wrong, I am under the impression that bass is omni-directional and mid/highs are directional. So if this is right, I shuold be able to do this, right? As far as why LaScalas, I think they sound great! Thanks in advance, Thom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 You are entirely welcome. Yes, bass is omni-directional. The only times that I've noticed any kind of "problem" is when a sub is completely off to one side, up against a wall - a good part, not far from the corner. It seems like the sound is out of phase due to that situation. As I would say to anyone, the tweeter will have a narrower true angle/beam than the mid. So that would be my recommendation to keep in mind. How close will your screen be from the magnets - shielding to avoid picture interference? Though it is omni-directional, the distance from bass bin to mid to tweeter may have a slight time delay factor, unless you are keeping all drivers the same distance apart as in a LaScala. Dr. Who may also have some suggestions as to your LaScala project. It sounds like a great idea. Keep us posted. dodger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Keep in mind that bass is omni-directional below 80Hz. The Bass-bin on the lascala crosses over at 400Hz. So from 80-400Hz you will still have some directionality concerns with the bass bin (that's over 2 octaves to worry about). You could probably get away with aiming the bass bin and the HF section in slightly different directions, but I wouldn't recommend it. Because of the huge size of your entertainment center, I would propose that you build the lascalas to be exactly like a normal lascala (not built in). Then I would simply build into the center a place for the lascala to go into. (kinda like a huge bookshelf speaker). You could take this another step and "soffit-mount" your speakers into the EC (entertainment center). Check out this link for great info regarding this: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=718. In order to see the pictures in the threads, you have to get an account on the forum (which is free). Before you go soffit-mounting, make sure that you take into account the need for speaker toe-in. Basically, you want the speaker aimed directly at the main listening position. However, some people like it toed out or in a little bit depending on their tastes. When you soffit-mount, you are permanently choosing the angle at which the speakers sit so you'll need to decide what sounds best to you. One extremely nice thing about soffit-mounting is that it dramatically increases your bass response by 6dB/octave. The lascalas are a bit bass shy in the lower regions so soffit-mounting will improve your lower bass response. However, this might also create a tubby sound as well because the effect starts happening around 200Hz (depending on a few other variables). That means that 100Hz would be 6dB louder and 50Hz would be 12dB louder and so on. There are simple filters out there that counter this, but obviously this is a much more involved approach. (If you go this route and EQ back to a flat frequency response, you will still have the benefit of less frequency modulation distortion and a little bit of extra extension below 53Hz). So if you're interested in an insanely tweaked setup, then I would suggest the soffit-mounting technique, otherwise I would just stick with the "bookshelf" approach. Btw, I noticed that the lascala is only 24" in depth and your EC is going to be 46" deep. You could extend the horn path a bit to further improve the LF capabilities of your lascala. I don't know what exact dimensions would be beneficial, but I'm sure there are others here on the forum that'd be able to pump out the numbers. There is also another mod that adds a port to the lascala which also improves it's LF response without altering any of the sound characteristics. Since you'll be building your own cabinet, I don't think it'd hurt to take this into account with your design either. You could probably even integrate both a longer horn and a port into the speaker without any compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Other papers note that bass is omni-directional to 200 hz. But the factors that will either add or decrease are room material composition, furnishings and whether a speaker is toed in, toed out. Also whether you will have the speaker flat, rather than toed. Also whether you will have it also flat against the wall in the back and along the sides. After owning two pair, I found no problems with directional until the size of the room is too large. A Google Search will turn up numerous opinions, all the way to 300 hz. dodger EDIT POST: Part of my commentary in this post also goes to having played Bass Guitar since 1969. Along with the study of frequency variation as to Author and company making speaker or sub. END EDIT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 ---------------- On 1/11/2005 6:46:38 PM dodger wrote: Other papers note that bass is omni-directional to 200 hz. But the factors that will either add or decrease are room material composition, furnishings and whether a speaker is toed in, toed out. Also whether you will have the speaker flat, rather than toed. Also whether you will have it also flat against the wall in the back and along the sides. After owning two pair, I found no problems with directional until the size of the room is too large. A Google Search will turn up numerous opinions, all the way to 300 hz. dodger EDIT POST: Part of my commentary in this post also goes to having played Bass Guitar since 1969. Along with the study of frequency variation as to Author and company making speaker or sub. END EDIT ---------------- Just for my own clarification, are you talking about dispersion pattern or localizing the sound? Everywhere I've read says that humans can't tell where signals below 80Hz are coming from. However, this has nothing to do with the fact that some speakers radiate 200Hz signals in a 360 degree dispersion pattern. As long as you're within the on-axis response of a speaker you shouldn't be able to notice much of a difference...that's why I say you can get away with aiming the bass bin and the HF section in slightly different directions. Anyways, if there are however articles that say 200Hz isn't localizeable then I would very much like to read them. I just wanted to make sure we weren't confusing two very different things. I don't know the dispersion pattern of the lascala bass bin, but I would think that it'd be rather narrow considering that it's horn loaded (the reason horns increase efficiency is because they narrow the dispersion pattern...it's a bit more complicated than that, but it's the basic rule behind it all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 I think this is a most interesting idea, and will be looking forward to seeing pics when you get the project going. One thought, if you are planning to build your bass bins, would be to consider Bob Crites' design on the "Cornscala". The idea of having a seperate HF section with K400/401 mid horn and K77 tweets should have an excellent result in your setup. In my own experience with LaScala, I wasn't really happy with the bass response until I started using a sub with it. The simplified folded horn in LaScala, in contrast with the fabulous Khorn, was PWK's compromise in order to make a PA speaker with some portability (as much as LaScala's are ever portable). The result to my ears is something missing on the bottom end. To my ears, the Cornwall has the best bottom end, aside from the Klipschorn. The shortcoming of the Cornwall is the K600 mid-horn, IMO. It is just not capable of the smoothness of a Khorn or LaScala with the K400 horn. Since you are planning to do seperate HF and LF sections, this could be a workable solution. In addition to that, the construction of the "Cornscala" LF section would be a piece of cake compared to that folded horn in the LaScala. Perhaps a best of both worlds solution. Just some food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 There is a point where we may be looking at different frequency points. The addition of a sub-woofer. In subs, 80 hz and below, with proper placement and design, seems to be the agreed omni-directional end. In a room that size, unless volumes are very quiet, or specific to a channel the bass below 80 hz as you say and in some white papers will be omni-directional up to various stated frequencies. Single bass drivers vs dual with phase cancellation and a notch along with various rippled effects will create a problem. As the poster is speaking of the LaScala as is some bass deficiency is there by its design. You will have a sweet spot for mids and highs, but though the bass is radiating through the horn, the composite materials and placement as to flat against the back OR back and side walls have a large impact on the sense of being omni-directional.. At more intense levels the horn front projection effect becomes noticeable. Picture a say blues group in an area as stated. Close your eyes. The lead, organ or piano are much more noticeable as to point of origin than the bass. In recordings, bass is usually distributed to both channels except in cases of Philharmonic Orchestral music. Granted, the crossover point is not optimal. Your idea of a rotation is acceptable, depending again on wall composition, furnishings and the ultimate rotational degree. Daddy Dee actually has a better idea. But given the parameters, the poster's comment will hold in most cases. Unless you are looking at Bud Fried's calculations in the addition of a Sub-woofer. Then a two way system would be recommended in addition to the sub. dodger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Reed Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 What's the difference in a "Cornscala" and a "La Wall"? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 No physical difference but with the "La Wall" branding, expect to pay a premium price. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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