minn_male42 Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 ---------------- On 2/8/2005 2:27:55 PM Strabo wrote: Where in my previous post did I say that these things do not work? I didn't. In fact I made it a point that they do some good. My problem with them is the application of room correction software. ---------------- you referred to them as follows On 2/8/2005 10:10:40 AM Strabo wrote: ....The vigorous fighting using overglorified (mis)-information to validate certain peoples purchases is plain stupidity. In my case, this fervor drove me away from the HT forum and into the two channel and architectural forums where I learned so much more about good sound. I appreciate what I have learned from the many helpful and knowledgeable people of this forum and occasionally I come back to see what they have to say. Over time the arguing with miss guided information drove me to look elsewhere to learn. I am not saying that the information provided is wrong. It is probably correct, but with a miss guided application..... i can see the following comments: "overglorified (mis)-information" "miss guided information" "miss guided application" Your one sentence of: "I am not saying that the information provided is wrong. It is probably correct..." i guess that is your statement that these systems do some good????? and you ignore the basic real world reality that i keep referring to: NOT EVERYONE HAS A DEDICATED HOME THEATER i would guess that most users on this forum have a room that needs to serve more than one purpose.... as a renter, i cannot treat my walls with wall treatments.... and i know that if i was still married - my wife would never allow wall treatments in her living room.... so do i do nothing to improve the sound in my room or do i try a pioneer elite receiver with the MCACC circuit.... WOW!!! it made a big improvement in my room.... but no... you have to take it back because strabo says it's all a marketing scam to raise the price of the receiver and also you can't use it because you didn't use room treatments first...... LOL i think i'll keep my humble receiver that does improve the sound of my wonderful klipsch speakers and hopefully someday i will have a dedicated room in which i can take your "advice" and do it right!!!!! BTW - in my first response i ignored your reference to Bill and myself as exhibiting..."plain stupidity".... i can see why you stopped coming into this forum if you feel the need to insult people... (thank you for your mature comments) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 ---------------- On 2/8/2005 2:08:56 PM minn_male42 wrote: and as the articles that i posted above infer.....i hardly feel that lexicon and meridian would decide to say "me too" to any technology... if this technology was just a "gimmick" then those two companies wouldn't have anything to do with it ---------------- Point taken - but the list of receiver companies stuffing some sort of EQ algo into their latest offerings can be called nothing else. At best, the auto-room correction (which, BTW, was started by Bo$e, with their AdaptIQ systems in the latter portion of the '90's) is a convenience for people who don't wish to invest in real room correction. I never said it wouldn't do anything to improve your perception of the sound - I'm just saying it doesn't fix what's actually broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 ---------------- On 2/8/2005 2:57:48 PM Griffinator wrote: At best, the auto-room correction (which, BTW, was started by Bo$e, with their AdaptIQ systems in the latter portion of the '90's) is a convenience for people who don't wish to invest in real room correction. I never said it wouldn't do anything to improve your perception of the sound - I'm just saying it doesn't fix what's actually broken. ---------------- I would glady invest in "real room correction".... but it is simply not possible in my current situation.... BTW - it improves the SOUND of my system... my PERCEPTIONS are the same with the system engaged or bypassed... with several degrees in music and many years in the music and music related fields, i can tell you what sounds better and what sounds worse.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Multi-channel sound is headed in the direction of automatic room correction. The reason that this is happening is because the biggest qualitative gains can be made here with currently available microprocessors. Some systems will be better than others. Major manufacturers seem to be headed in a very similar direction, but will use their own path to get to a good room response. Newer members do not know where the top companies are headed or what is available. They come to places like this to hear about the latest and greatest. It is indeed unfortunate that discussions about new technology degenerate into name calling. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Russ, The Denon 5900's i.link had to be upgraded in a recall by Denon to do what was originally promised in the sales literature. I suspect that Denon trying to run one on Pioneer and Yamaha. Business is war to the Japanese. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strabo Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 ---------------- On 2/8/2005 2:54:24 PM minn_male42 wrote: i can see the following comments: "overglorified (mis)-information" "miss guided information" "miss guided application" I still stand by those statements. Not one of them says that the software is wrong. "overglorified" translated, overused and over hyped, "miss guided" translated, used improperly. ---------------- On 2/8/2005 2:54:24 PM minn_male42 wrote: as a renter, i cannot treat my walls with wall treatments.... and i know that if i was still married - my wife would never allow wall treatments in her living room.... And that is my fault how? I am a renter and happily married, sharing a living room slash HT that includes room treatments. It's not as hard as you might think. ---------------- On 2/8/2005 2:54:24 PM minn_male42 wrote: BTW - in my first response i ignored your reference to Bill and myself as exhibiting..."plain stupidity".... i can see why you stopped coming into this forum if you feel the need to insult people... (thank you for your mature comments) ---------------- Please re-read my previous post. I did not reference anyone with that quote. In fact, I did not mention you or Bill until two paragraphs later. If you felt offended then by all means please re-read it (oh the irony). I should have known better than to post in here again. Like the rest of my points Russ, you will probably twist this around and take it as a personal insult when it really isn't. I give up. Good luck to all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 ---------------- On 2/8/2005 3:39:25 PM MrMcGoo wrote: It is indeed unfortunate that discussions about new technology degenerate into name calling. ---------------- Didn't seem to bother you much when you called me a liar and accused me of selling my own gear over speaking truth. Don't wring your hands and act all pious when you started the mudslinging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 ---------------- On 2/8/2005 3:46:34 PM Strabo wrote: ---------------- On 2/8/2005 2:54:24 PM minn_male42 wrote: BTW - in my first response i ignored your reference to Bill and myself as exhibiting..."plain stupidity".... i can see why you stopped coming into this forum if you feel the need to insult people... (thank you for your mature comments) ---------------- Please re-read my previous post. I did not reference anyone with that quote. In fact, I did not mention you or Bill until two paragraphs later. If you felt offended then by all means please re-read it (oh the irony). ---------------- LOL You originally posted: The vigorous fighting using overglorified (mis)-information to validate certain peoples purchases is plain stupidity. Since Bill and I were the only ones who were discussing the room correction/auto equalizer feature it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who you were referring to...... if you weren't referring to us, then who is exhibiting "plain stupidity"?? someone else in this thread???.... so you were insulting someone else??? and that is any better why????? LOL Thank you for your contributions to this thread - they were both pointless as well as useless.... come again - anytime i'm sure you will tell us again how you weren't insulting anyone....LOL and despite my critical comments about your posts - i never did make any comments that disparaged you personally..... maybe you should take notes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 ---------------- On 2/8/2005 3:06:00 PM minn_male42 wrote: I would glady invest in "real room correction".... but it is simply not possible in my current situation.... BTW - it improves the SOUND of my system... my PERCEPTIONS are the same with the system engaged or bypassed... with several degrees in music and many years in the music and music related fields, i can tell you what sounds better and what sounds worse.... ---------------- Fair enough. I'll retract the "gimmick" accusation. It serves a purpose for those that either cannot or aren't willing to do room treatments. I just have a big problem with it being touted as a "solution" to room acoustics problems, because it isn't - it's a band-aid on a stab wound. Just for my own curiosity's sake, why are you not able to perform room treatments? There are a number of ways you can install sound absorption panels and bass traps that are portable and easily de-installed, if you're living in a rental property or some such temporary arrangement... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 ---------------- On 2/8/2005 7:20:03 PM Griffinator wrote: Fair enough. I'll retract the "gimmick" accusation. It serves a purpose for those that either cannot or aren't willing to do room treatments. I just have a big problem with it being touted as a "solution" to room acoustics problems, because it isn't - it's a band-aid on a stab wound. Just for my own curiosity's sake, why are you not able to perform room treatments? There are a number of ways you can install sound absorption panels and bass traps that are portable and easily de-installed, if you're living in a rental property or some such temporary arrangement... ---------------- another thought that we have not discussed..... what if your room is really pretty good without treatments and/or you have treated your room extensively already? the electronic fine tuning available with these "auto" systems can take a very good room and make it great!....you might be able to do an install with all of your room treatments and make your install sound even better! my current living arrangements are rather unique and complicated, but the bottom line is that i cannot use room treatments... the room has a large fireplace on one end and a large bookcase on the other end.... the back wall slants inward to the doorway at the center.... one back corner opens to a short hallway... actually, the RTA of the room is really rather good.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 This got way, way out of hand. To address the issue set out by the initial question: I believe there is no reason to get separates. It is not a litmus test for performance or features. Single units are complicated enough already. I infer you just want some assurance that you're not spending money unwisely and passing up an opportunity to go to a significant higher level of performance which may require 20 percent more investment, or so. At least that is the way I worry about a purchase. I do believe that many middle of the road HT receivers are the best buys. Others are welcome to comment. You probably want a Chevy Impala, not a luxury or compact. Where to draw the line? It is probably very worthwhile to establish your budget and what you'll be hooking it all up to and what sort of media you'll be playing. This might be a good time to think about very compatible HT receiver, a new DVD player which will also play the recent audio formats, and even future plans for a big HDTV. A sub may be in your future too. If such things are indeed your goals, then perhaps the very good people here can come forward with a suggestion for a package which allow some add-ons. Best, Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 ---------------- On 2/8/2005 8:35:14 PM minn_male42 wrote: another thought that we have not discussed..... what if your room is really pretty good without treatments and/or you have treated your room extensively already? the electronic fine tuning available with these "auto" systems can take a very good room and make it great!....you might be able to do an install with all of your room treatments and make your install sound even better! my current living arrangements are rather unique and complicated, but the bottom line is that i cannot use room treatments... the room has a large fireplace on one end and a large bookcase on the other end.... the back wall slants inward to the doorway at the center.... one back corner opens to a short hallway... actually, the RTA of the room is really rather good.... http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif"> ---------------- If one overcomes the bulk of the standing waves in the room, I suppose a digital parametric in line with other DSP treatments wouldn't hurt anything. That's basically my big issue with the whole auto-correction scheme - it just doesn't address the room itself. As far as the RTA of your room - how many different places in the room did you take RTA measurements? The frequency response in a given room can differ drastically between two positions as little as a foot apart. This is the nature of the beast when dealing with standing waves. Sounds like you have some pretty decent geometry in that room, which helps right off the bat. Size is the best remedy for standing waves, and odd geometry ranks a close second. Seriously, I'm glad for you that the MCACC is having a positive effect. I'm of the mind, however, that additional equalization is unnecessary in a well-treated room. Not that I'd be opposed to trying it out one time after a full-blown acoustic correction of a room, just to see how the auto-equalization circuit would behave.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 ---------------- On 2/8/2005 10:36:48 PM Griffinator wrote: ....As far as the RTA of your room - how many different places in the room did you take RTA measurements? The frequency response in a given room can differ drastically between two positions as little as a foot apart. This is the nature of the beast when dealing with standing waves. Sounds like you have some pretty decent geometry in that room, which helps right off the bat. Size is the best remedy for standing waves, and odd geometry ranks a close second. Seriously, I'm glad for you that the MCACC is having a positive effect. I'm of the mind, however, that additional equalization is unnecessary in a well-treated room. Not that I'd be opposed to trying it out one time after a full-blown acoustic correction of a room, just to see how the auto-equalization circuit would behave.... ---------------- the RTA was taken in all the seating postions - basically 4 points on the large couch.... i do look as the MCACC feature as the Tact website looks at it.... the speakers in the room have a different response compared to the response in an anechoic chamber..... klipsch speakers have an advantage IMHO compared to speakers with cone tweeters.... horn midranges/tweeters do have less room interaction than cone drivers, but proper digital equalization will improve the sound.... i find in my situation that with the MCACC i get a much better mid-bass response with my KLF-30's in my room.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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